SPEAKER_01 0:10

Welcome again to Pilates Perspectives. Today we have Reed Flanagan to discuss men and masculinity in Pilates. But first, let's check in. So let's take a moment to ground ourselves. So ground yourself wherever you are. And we're going to start as we always do with the breath. So I will ask you to inhale through the nose for a count of four and out for a count of four. And you're going to keep breathing and direct your count as necessary. And if four doesn't work and you want to inhale longer or shorter, and exhale for longer or shorter, this is your breath. You decide. And then as you're breathing, let's ask ourselves to find a little gratitude for the space that we are currently in. For the fact that you are able to feel your feet on a solid surface. And then as you breathe deeply, let's imagine the air moving down past your ribs toward the floor. And then release and release it out and upward. Now let's take two more breaths. And as you inhale, imagine your breath moving down into your lower abdomen, filling it up and releasing upwards and outwards. So feel that down and up feeling. And now let's take two more breaths and let's imagine the breath not only reaching downward, but also up a little higher, expanding the ribcage. And now how high up into the ribcage can you go? Can you feel the fullness from your belly all the way up through your collarbone? Now you have an option here to hold your breath at the top for a count of one, two, three, and then for a nice long exhale, release for as long of a count as you possibly can. That kind of expansive breathing is not only a wonderful way to train your breath apparatus, your diaphragm, and your intercostals, but also for you to find the expansiveness and the fullness of your own body. Okay. So let's take a moment now and let's think on how moving the intention of your breath changed how it felt in your body. Despite being the same breath, we do this breath all the time. And despite we're in the same place having this conversation, our intentionality changed the sensation. Today I challenge you to apply this to the upcoming conversation. What are some ways that you balance showing up authentically with a mindfulness of the people you're surrounded with? What are some of the ways that you've been involved in a little extra care to ensure that the people around you feel safe and are comfortable in your presence? How has doing so impacted your ability to build and maintain community? All right, for our final few breaths, you choose where you would like to direct your breath patterns. Are you outward and upward? Are you opening the rib cage? Are you directing toward the floor? Are you just breathing rhythmically? You choose your intention. Okay. Thank you for spending a moment of mindfulness with me. For today's episode, Reed Flanagan of Atlantis Fitness and Pilates will be joining us. As an ISSA master trainer holding a wide variety of certifications, including Pilates and Yoga Teacher Training, Reed empowers clients to make sustainable, long-lasting changes, transforming lives through movement. You can find Reed on YouTube and Instagram at Atlantis Fitness and Pilates or on his website, www.atlantisfitness and pilates.com. Welcome, Reed. So welcome back to Pilates Perspectives. Today we are speaking with Reed Flanagan, and our title is a doozy. It's Men and Masculinity in Pilates. Reed, welcome.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Thank you. So glad to be here.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

So before we like dive right into this, uh, why don't you just give the audience a little bit of a little something about who you are, what you're doing right now, how you kind of come into the Pilates space.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Okay. Uh so again, my name is Reed Flandigan. Uh I am originally from South Georgia and now living out here in California. And I got into the Pilates space in kind of an odd way. Uh I was working at a five-star resort um back in Georgia, and they had one master instructor for Balanced Body that was teaching seven days a week. And she was like, Please, I need a break. And she'd come to some of my yoga classes at the time. And uh she liked them and said, Hey, if I train you in Pilates, will you take over on the weekends for me so that I can get a break? And oh, fantastic. That's how we got started.

SPEAKER_01 5:58

So many, so many people have entered into Pilates sort of um, you know, accidentally. You know, so uh when you started with Pilates, you you were a personal trainer at that time.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah, personal trainer and yoga instructor.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Okay. Uh what about Pilates spoke to you? Or what surprised you, I guess?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Uh what surprised me at first was walking into the room because it it looked like some kind of weird dungeon with all the equipment that I was unsure of what all of it did. Um, but I I really liked it because I thought thought that it was kind of a good blend between like your yoga flexibility, mobility, mindfulness, and gym workouts. And that's what instantly drew me to it.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

It's it's it's interesting because I've always thought of it that way when people say, Well, how's it different than yoga? Or how is it different than personal training? I've always sort of like, well, if you kind of take the two and have a baby, exactly, you have Pilates. Exactly. Yeah. Um, so our topic today is on men and masculinity and Pilates. And I want to confess, um, I'm a little nervous about diving into this topic. And let me tell you why. On social now, the topic of masculinity is huge. Yes. And and I I feel like I don't even have a good solid grasp on on where it's going and and what how that conversation shapes how we would look at men coming into the Pilates space. So if I were to say, like, like, how would you define masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Um, so again, that's I'm not a you know gender studies professor or anything. So I'm just gonna kind of give my thoughts on it. And uh my thoughts on masculinity is one that you can't talk about it with also talking about femininity, and that really both of them are constructs that we as both a society and a culture have placed certain attributes um to. So, you know, typically here where we are in the US, we think of masculinity. Immediately, you might think of like strong leadership, powerful, that kind of uh vibe versus femininity. You may think of uh more caring, emotional, that kind of thing. But to me personally, there is no difference. They're they're kind of a made-up, and in every individual has portions of both. Right. What they express may be more one side or the other, but it's not to say that a woman couldn't be more assertive, leadership type thing. That certainly fits many women, I know. It fits many women in my family. Same thing with uh masculinity of you know, being emotional. It's we have grown up, unfortunately, in a society that tends to say, boys, you're not allowed to cry, you're not allowed to show emotion. And I think that has hindered us as a society because it there's nothing more strong than being able to show your your vulnerabilities and your weaknesses. That's what makes us human and makes us three-dimensional characters, not just this 2D image of a man.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Well, that's uh some of the leadership research that's coming out is that you actually engender um uh more trust if you are open and vulnerable. Um, but we've not often ascribed, you're right, we've not often ascribed those or taught those skills, particularly to young boys, for example. Um when does that you know, we do as as as humans, we do chunk information, right? So femininity, masculinity, we ascribe uh baseline um um affirmations to those to both of those, but but at what point do you think do those qualif those qualifiers become toxic?

SPEAKER_00 9:55

I think when we and this is what I think a lot of society in the world, be it this topic or a lot of topics, when we think that one revolves around the other, we give one the dominant role, the other one the more submissive, or you you help the uh main role. And to me, again, they're equals. They're not one is better than the other. There's not um, again, to me, there's not a difference in my mind of the two, other than each individual has aspects of both. Um, so it's one of those things that I think toxic masculinity is when we stand super rigid in again, things like you're not allowed to show emotion. You are a leader, even if you don't know, like many times, unfortunately, in society, we have it where you'll have someone who two people that are maybe not of equal qualifications, but because one is considered more masculine, they might get the role because they're considered, oh, you exhibit these traits that we associate, and so you're gonna be the better leader. When in fact, I kind of think of it as like, would you rather have a drill sergeant as a leader, or would you rather have someone that's a little bit more forgiving, like a Mother Teresa as a leader? So right.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Mother Teresa was a pretty darn good leader. Yes. Yeah, uh, I totally agree with that. Let's let's sort of transition this into Pilates. So um when I started my studio, very few men were coming in the door. But the men who would come would be because their wives said, you really should try this, right? And and what but what I did find, Reed, is that when they did find it, the their love and attachment to it was was profound. Um, very often the husband would never miss a session, yeah, no matter what was happening at home. Um, and they they just they felt very connected to the work in a very different way. What do you what do you think it is inside of the the Pilates environment that invites that? That invites sort of that once a male client sees it, they embrace it in a in really sort of a very unique way.

SPEAKER_00 12:09

I I think it's just because it's something so novel. Again, a lot of times uh I find men uh to be more afraid of failure or looking foolish and stuff like that. Um again, they tend to be very rigid and they, you know, I know can speak from personal experience. I often find it hard to try new things until I get myself out of the way because I don't want to look foolish doing it. And that's not only a thing that males have, but I do find it to be a more predominantly uh masculine trait. Um, but once they get in and they see it, I think they see so many of the benefits. One is just immediately the feeling that they get of again, I find a lot of men when I was doing lots of personal training, they thought every workout had to be at a 10 and had to be super hard. And I'm like, you're gonna burn yourself out. It's not doing your body justice. So we need to dial it back and be able to say, hey, this workout's goal is to be lighter, maybe focusing on more depth range of motion. This workout is meant to be more intermediate, uh, middle of the road, working on more muscular endurance. And then this workout is meant to be heavy. You're gonna feel your muscles the next day. And Pilates can do all of those. Um, so I think when they get in and they first try it, they get that feeling, they say, Oh, I finally did a workout that I feel better. And like I feel better in my body and my joints and everything because it's not as hard on my joints as lifting is, but also I feel better energetically because I didn't drain every last drop of energy out of me.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yeah, I feel better energetically. I those those weren't the words, but they were sort of the like what was behind the words when when they would talk to me about like, oh my God, I love this. I love how I feel. Yeah. Um, what would you say are some of the maybe fears or reservations that men might have toward Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Again, I think coming in and trying something new uh and being afraid to look foolish or not know and be, especially when it comes to working out again, going back to kind of societal norms, is it very much a man, I feel like, goes into a gym and is like, oh, this is a place that we've always dominated and been the bigger population of. Um, and so they go into a studio to where now they are not the dominant population and they're doing things that they've never seen before, tried before. Um, and kind of, you know, for women too, it's why I know a lot of women that I've talked to and trained, they feel kind of the same apprehension of stepping into a weight room versus they're like, hey, I'll go, I'll go run on the treadmill do the stair mill. But I'm like, no, go in and try the weights. Those are giving you just as much benefit as anything else, and you deserve to be there just as much. So um I think that is a big apprehension to it. Um, and just the stigma that unfortunately is on Pilates.

SPEAKER_01 15:08

Yeah, what is what would you say? Does that still exist, do you think? Uh, and and how would you what what would you say that is?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

I think thankfully we are seeing a quick rush to changing that, but I think the stigma still is very much of, oh, it's made for dancers specifically looking like ballerinas and that kind of thing. And that is just so I feel like off-putting to a lot of men. Um, when in reality, I mean, we have different football teams and stuff that practice things like ballet and footwork because they can also benefit from the case.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

I was gonna say, man, professional dancers, professional dancing is like the ultimate sport to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

I was gonna say some of the most fit individuals I know are professional dancers. So again, I'm I'm not knocking it, it's just unfortunately societal, yeah, pre uh like it's just it's it's for the ballerina.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

Yeah, right. That's the way it, you know, it was marketed over the years. And now that sort of that impression seems to be a positive. You know, I want to look long and lean and graceful and be, you know, uh, but but yes, it's still there.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Um, and if you've ever trained a ballerina, especially a male ballerina, holy cow, there's a lot of athleticism that's like I was gonna say they're essentially it's another group, I would say, is like gymnast of just the amount of control, flexibility, mobility combined with the pure raw strength of the muscle that they have.

SPEAKER_01 16:36

Um well, and along those lines, then like what would you or how would you help somebody work through some of those apprehensions or that discomfort around walking into a Pilates studio?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Um, one is I love when anyone new comes in to uh have them take a beginner class or have them take a private one-on-one session. Um, but also to I find a lot of times when, and especially for myself, when I first started teaching, you get excited and you want to teach the knowledge that you have, but you have to speak to them at the level that they are. So maybe instead of calling things by Pilates terms, you address it at more of a terminology that they would understand to bring that apprehension level down. So, like again, if you're cueing, say footwork, instead of saying, all right, let's go to position two, I don't know what that is. How about, all right, let's bring the feet wide on the foot bar?

SPEAKER_03 17:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

That's a lot what I feel like is an easy way to bring that apprehension level down of saying, hey, I'm here to guide you and set you up for success, not failure, and not to prove that I know everything over you, that I'm not above you.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

I think that's uh I think that's sound advice for everyone, right? Um specifically for men, how do you think Pilates can be the most where where do you see Pilates as being the most helpful or beneficial?

SPEAKER_00 18:03

Um, so again, for a lot of men, they will do weight workouts or they might do cardio flexibility, still, I think, is something and mobility that a lot of the male population could work on to um be better at. Um, so it's a great, it's probably one of the better tools for that. It has a great feedback system because again, you can really focus more on the control of the movement. So you're working on more in-depth range of motion than you maybe would with weights.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Um and when you can articulate that, people they people respond. It doesn't matter, male, female, right? When you can ar create some of you know, articulate why what we're doing right now is beneficial. It's it's amazing how people light up and like uh uh can you know attach to that.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

Yeah. And it's one of those things too, I try to tell people, I'm like, it it there's lots of similarities between Pilates and say strength training and Pilates in yoga. Um, and depending on how it's taught, it can be essentially either of those things. Um, but it depends on the teacher and also the student of what they're wanting. And kind of going back to the like getting a male accustomed to a studio is allow them to do a little bit more of a strength session the first time. Don't try to force them into um something totally unnatural to them. Say, hey, okay, you know, we're gonna do some legwork. Sure. If you want to be a little bit heavier on spring, then maybe I'd put you on later. Let's let you do that to feel it in your body type thing. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

Let's talk a little bit about mindfulness. Um quick story. My 86-year-old uh father-in-law uh came to me with a DVD, uh, which I was not sure how we were gonna play it because we didn't have a DVD player anymore. Uh, and and he said, I found this and I'd like to, I'd like to look at this with you. And it was on mindfulness. And and he said, I've had this for about 20 years, but I was never sort of brave enough to to practice this. And and I said, Well, why dad? Why, you know, what what what's behind that? And he said, Well, at the time I was practicing law, and I thought this was all just too frou-frou that it wouldn't, it wouldn't change anything. He said, But I'm coming to realize the importance of mindfulness and sort of like grounding myself and setting the intention, and I wish I paid attention 20 years ago. In in terms of emphasizing mindfulness, in particular to clients who might be coming in for the strength aspect, um, how do you lead them into that?

SPEAKER_00 20:54

What so one of the and to tie it to something slightly different is when I first started teaching yoga, they talked about like the philosophy and um again the mindfulness that we associate with yoga almost immediately. And they said when you teach people, don't direct them directly towards mindfulness, get them used to the flow, let them be in the environment first. They'll get curious about the mindfulness if they spend enough time here. And I feel like it's a very similar thing with Pilates is let them come in, let them just be in their body that first, you know, however many sessions. Then, as for me myself, I never feel more quiet in my brain. That shuts all the voices, all the to-do list, everything down than when I am trying to do something more advanced because you have to be so focused, otherwise, you're gonna not going to be able to do what you're doing. So, to me, that's one of the best ways to slowly get someone there is have them go through. You know, those first few classes doing the beginner stuff, then get them doing either something that requires a ton of control or that is a kind of complicated move. It doesn't have to be necessarily like balancing, you know, doing right.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

You're not saying like safe, you're saying you know, add some complexity.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah, add complexity, and that will quiet them down and get them kind of into that mindfulness of, hey, I can't do this unless I'm focused on my breathing, where I'm contracting or extending and releasing my muscles. And it really does, it brings your mind to this awesome quiet place.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Yeah. Um in the in the context of you know, mindfulness as a as a meditative practice, right? That is it really that quiet space, but but mindfulness infused with movement, such as yoga, you know, a yoga practice or or a Pilates practice, uh, so much of that is actually adding the that that physical complexity to tune the mind in inside or into that experience. Is that does that resonate with you?

SPEAKER_00 23:06

Yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Um how do you set that stage? It doesn't matter, you I know we're talking about men, but but for you as a as a as a a fitness coach, a a wellness coach, how do you set that stage generally for your for all of your clients? Um and I think just not just watching you and listening to you, I think you just do it organically.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yeah, it's I was gonna say it's a a little difficult in certain ways to say because it's I feel like each person hits into it differently. It's kind of like meditation for some people. Again, when I've led through my yoga training and led through meditation practices, often they say, you know, close your eyes, go internal. To me, nothing is gonna make my mind start screaming more than closing my eyes. Then I learned about a particular type of meditation where they would use like a candle or something, they'd keep their eyes focused and focus on that one point. And that is what helped me shut my mind down and really become more in tune with I'm sitting here in this moment, I feel this chair underneath me, I feel my feet on the floor, I feel my lungs expanding and contracting, kind of thing. And I think it's kind of individual to the person. So it's you get to know the client and get to know what gets them into that zone.

SPEAKER_01 24:29

Uh, if you were training uh another instructor, um, that's a skill that you're saying right now. And that's a skill that, again, I think you organically have and probably intuitively have. Um how would you coach a new instructor um into being confident in in that approach?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

One is as a new instructor, again, we're oftentimes afraid we're gonna fail and everything. And one of the uh things I almost hate to say is that we learned is fake it till you make it. Oftentimes you're if if you miss something in your class, say you're doing a a flow series on one side and you've got three or four exercises lined up, and then you go to the other side and you skip one of them, most of your class will never know, kind of thing. Um somebody will always yell out. What about you you will have the occasional person that will, or the or the the counters is the big one. I'm terrible at counting. I don't think any Pilates instructor can actually count.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

I think that's a prerequisite we test whether or not you can count.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

I was gonna say one of one of my clients used to tell me, he's like, or you can only count to 20, and that's if his shoes are off. So um yeah, it's it's uh it's one of those things that just as a a new instructor, go in it and just feel the joy. It's it's okay again to be to be uh messy, make a mistake. Uh-huh. At the end of the day, we're we're not doing heart surgery or anything. If you make an accidental mistake, it's fine. The more practice and repetition, too, I feel like that you get in with things, the quicker you are to develop that skill, that mastery to where it's like, oh, I've done this a million times. I can step into that role type thing.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Oh, that's great. I love it. You can catch a 20 if he takes his shoes off. Um, I sometimes think I, you know, I've lived so long in a studio that I have if I'm really like stuck on a problem, I have to take my shoes off to think. Um, what are some things that men should keep in mind uh when they're entering into spaces that are really dominated by women?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Um one is again, you're entering a space where you are not the dominant population. Um, and really not only just men, but anyone. Anyone when you enter a new space that you're new to, don't come in with any type of arrogance or expectation to be fully catered to or anything. Like obviously, hopefully it's a space that they're going to welcome you, but you also have to be welcoming back and not say, Hey, I'm new here, I'm gonna set these rules type thing. Um, you should enter and say, Hey, let me learn the rules of how this space works within the community that inhabits it, and decide, do I like this space or is it not for me?

SPEAKER_01 27:32

So let's flip that. If you had advice for studio owners um and instructors, what are some things that that women in the space can keep in mind when men are entering into a predominantly women-oriented spot?

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Um again, I think for men entering is to uh it's one of those things that when someone comes in that that's new to a space, always assume that they're coming in with the best of intentions until proven otherwise. If they make a mistake, carefully tell them big, hey, we don't do that here, or something along those lines. Like don't and give them grace. Because they're still learning the rules of the new space that they're in. So if you are the domineering population of the space, you are the the OG of a space. It's one of those things as they're learning, you have to learn with them and create a space that allows them to know what is acceptable and what is not acceptable. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

And we could take the male-female out of it and just say, generally, yeah, you're creating your, you know, you we want our studio environments wherever they are to feel safe and inclusive of all persons.

SPEAKER_00 28:54

Right. I always had a um, this maybe one of the best thing in the world, but uh I always told people I was like, listen, this room, my studio that I had, there's only big enough for one ego in here, and it's mine. So please check all of yours at the door.

SPEAKER_01 29:09

Like we're everybody else that leave it exactly.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

We're we're here all together, and if you can't be nice to each other and accept each other and give each other grace, then this is not the space for you.

SPEAKER_01 29:21

All right, let's let's uh let's focus on giving each other grace. I completely agree. Uh let's let's shift a little bit. Uh Joseph Pilates was a man. Uh he had a lot of athleticism. He has and had a lot of athleticism in his method. Um I think sometimes we forget that, that there is actually a lot of athleticism in the Pilates method. And today we see a lot of fitness trying to use the reformer as a cable machine or a leg press. What advice would you give somebody who kind of is coming in and expecting uh just that kind of a workout?

SPEAKER_00 30:10

If it's what they want, it's getting them to work out, then by all means do it. But if you uh because I I certainly love to use it that way. I I have been pushing the boundaries at the dismay of a lot of the community in certain times, as utilizing the reformer as nothing more than a cable machine or a leg press machine.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

As using the reformer as a tool.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

Exactly. I I don't look at it or any of the machines or any of that as other than methods to achieve whatever workout I'm wanting to do in that period of time. And it's why I think studios should have classes where it is a more gym-focused type reformer or whatever equipment they use, but as well have it where, again, when they get curious, because again, you gotta, especially men, but also anyone. I came from a very small population to where I was having to educate people what Plotties even was in the first bit. So if I tried to get them in there doing grasshopper or something that they thought was just wack-a-doo as their first session, they were gonna say, Oh, I'm not going back. I didn't like that. Versus again, if I made it more accessible to them and said, Hey, we're gonna do this beginner class and we're doing these leg press and we're gonna use the footwork, but I'm gonna label it and just call it leg press and stuff like that. I think that's a beautiful way to then get them more curious after they feel safe in the space, say, All right, now, now can I learn a little bit more about this method? Like who, who was Joseph? What where where did this come from? Why, why is it still existing, you know, a hundred years later?

SPEAKER_01 31:42

So there's like an element of give them um what they what they think they want and infuse it with what they need. But there is also an opportunity for the reformer to be a tool and the apparatus to be a tool, um, as well as a vehicle into the method.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Uh, where do you draw the line? Like on like, and I don't mean draw the line. I I feel like that's a that's a problematic statement, like as if there's a if this then that. But but but there like that continuum is like how do you talk about Pilates when when it's more in the Pilates space versus when it's more in the fitness space?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

So the way that I like to talk about Pilates and fitness again, I'd kind of to your point, we're we love to have like it's a yes or a no, it's a black or a white, and most things in this world are shades of gray.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Um so with We just really do need to get more comfortable with being uncomfortable exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Like that, and that's that is if you take almost nothing else away from fitness, is what fitness does is it is you going to make yourself uncomfortable and learn to be uncomfortable so that when you're doing things that aren't fitness and you're uncomfortable, your brain says, Oh, I've dealt with this feeling before. I know I'm okay, I am safe, yeah, I can breathe and work through this and be fine. I mean, even for me, like this is this speaking here in front of you is something that gets my heart rate up a little bit, but I'm surviving it. Um but to talk about Pilates in a Pilates space, it's I don't know. It's one of those things that I think by utilizing and again showing them that the reformer is just a tool, the method and the principles behind it are where some of the magic can happen is just the way to approach it.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

I love that. And you're doing great, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Yeah, I would never know you were sweating. Pilates perspectives is powered by Balanced Body. Instructors know good apparatus the moment their hands are on it. The glide of the carriage, the resistance of the springs, the footbar that stays exactly where it's set. Balanced Body has spent decades refining these details and more. We build Pilates equipment to meet your needs and those of your clients. Get $20 off your equipment order of $100 or more by visiting Pilates.com slash podcast dash discount and follow the prompts. Is that you know the reformer is so versatile, right? And there's so many things that you can do on it and with it, and so many ways you can approach training on it. But um having that rootedness in the principles is is is a lovely, is a lovely sort of place to take that. Um, you know, you we've been alluding to your varied fitness background. So do you want to talk a little bit about that and and um what inspired you to become a fitness coach?

SPEAKER_00 35:04

Ooh, we're gonna have to go. Well, I'll I'll try to make this long story quick. Um, so in sixth grade is when I first got into fitness. I asked for a Bow Flex that year for Christmas because we had to do a family history report. And I went to my mom and asked about her side and got all the information on that. I went to my dad's and asked about his side and found out that no one in the nine generations prior had ever lived past the age of 45. All different forms of heart disease. Um, and even at that age, I learned, ooh, that was not a very long life. Um, my dad and his brothers have since made it past them. My dad passed away at 58, which is still not a super long life. Um, so that got me into fitness in the first place. Um, fast forward to college, because of that, I went into biology pre-med thinking I want to go be a doctor. Decided for a summer, oh, since I'm interested in this, maybe I'll go become an EMT and went through EMT school and then learned after going through that. I was like, actually, this isn't for me. It's a very high stress situation. God bless all of our health and uh uh doctors, nurses, emts, all of them. They are they are amazing at what they do, but wasn't for me. Um, but I still wanted to help people, and that's where I became a fitness instructor. I got my personal training certificate and decided if I can't be on, you know, that side of medicine and health and wellness, I'll be on the preventative side, try to help people from having to go to the doctor and stuff like that. Um so yeah, that's how I got into health and wellness. Was that the exact question? Yeah, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

So so that's how you got into it. But but then if you were doing your own workout, right? You know, you're leaving here, you're like, ooh, finally done with that thing. I'm gonna go work out. What's your what's your go-to?

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Oh, my go-to. Um, so I when I first got into fitness, I was very big into uh bodybuilding. Um, and since then I'm going back into it. So I'm doing a lot of uh heavy bodybuilding type training uh right now. Um, but it's one of those back then that was all I did. I was very stiff. I remember when I first got introduced to yoga, I was like, oh, I'm gonna go in here. It's a bunch of older ladies, I'm gonna ace this. This will be super. I'd never felt more out of my element and like, holy crap, did I underestimate something than these amazing 50-plus year old women at the time when I was in my early 20s, gracefully going through this, meanwhile, I'm huffing, puffing, panting, about to die during a yoga class. Um so nowadays I try to balance it more with I right now my predominant is bodybuilding type training, but still keeping my Pilates, still keeping my flexibility training because it's what you need to be well-rounded.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah. So I I mean as a as a bodybuilder, um, the Pilates in the yoga is keeping you more flexible, would you say?

SPEAKER_00 38:02

More flexible. It's also it keeps you uh more injury free, I find. Um, again, weightlifting is it gets a little bit of a a bad rep of you know, weightlifting of being kind of mindless, but kind of with anything, when you're just doing it at a mediocre level, you are gonna be a little bit mindless. Professional bodybuilders are some of the most mindful people. When you're about to lift 450 plus pounds off a bar to do a bench press, you have to mentally be there in the moment, and nothing can be distracting you.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Um, so yeah, uh totally get that. Um, you know, the Pilates, then um, I mean, I know you sort of happened into Pilates, but uh now with your bodybuilding going back to bodybuilding, how often are you practicing Pilates and and and for male clients in particular who are looking for a compliment? Um, at what point do you bring them into Pilates or do you recommend the Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Uh so right now, just because of my training schedule, I'm probably only doing Pilates twice a week. Um and it's one of those things that, and it's something that I would hope hits the Pilates space a little bit more is learning about workouts are not just workouts. You need to do programming. You need to have a conscious effort of not only what am I doing this week, but what am I doing for the next 12 weeks and look at it at a larger scale. Um, so for me, right now, my main focus for the next 12 weeks is spending five to six days lifting weights, but then having two at least two sessions a week of Pilates. And oftentimes what I use Pilates for is to either A prevent injury. So I'm hitting lots of those muscle groups, like the rotator cuff muscles and stuff, making sure that they are working properly, that they're staying warmed up and that type of thing. Um, I also love to use it as the reformer as a way to hit muscle groups that you only have so much time a day to spend in the gym. So if I am focused on an upper body workout, let's say, and I'm super focused on chest and back that day and not hitting my shoulders, then I'll use the my Pilates, one of my Pilates sessions to focus more on shoulders. Um I find it a great, a great complement to it is a way to address areas that you may have missed when you were doing your primary workout.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

What a wonderful um selling feature, right? Like uh if you want to wait, if you want to be a professional bodybuilder, do your Pilates. Yeah. If you right, if you you know, it's sort of like the foundation, it builds the foundational skills.

SPEAKER_00 40:41

And it's one of the things too, the the feedback system of the reformer itself, because again, you have a carriage for reformer at least, specifically. That's a really good point. It's on its springs. You have to have control at all times that again sometimes can be a little bit more lacking in the weightlifting environment. And it has taught me more about controlling the weight, slowing the movements down, proper bracing of my core than I got when I did my first certifications in uh personal training. And I think that is one of the good selling points of Pilates is a, we all know Pilates is one of the best things you can do for your core. It's one of the most core-focused modalities out there. Um, and not only does that mean, okay, great, I might get a six-pack out of it, but it teaches you how to use the core in conjuncture with other movement patterns like your squat or like your bench press, different things like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah, that's that's huge. That's huge. In a previous interview, you discussed the importance of not overloading your clients with information. Instead, you should sprinkle in the knowledge. What does that translate to?

SPEAKER_00 41:56

So again, kind of going back to meeting them on their level. I find a lot of our educational systems, as we go through personal training certificates, yoga certificates, even Pilates certificates, you gain all this knowledge and they teach you how to be a teacher for the most part. They teach you, or they should say they teach you the knowledge to be a teacher, but oftentimes there's not enough focus, I feel like, on okay, now how do you communicate that knowledge to someone who doesn't have as in-depth the knowledge? If I'm talking to a you, if I'm talking to a workshop group or to a teacher training group, I will use different language than I will use with the general population because they may not understand it. So I might say, okay, we're gonna work our biceps today for general population, uh, versus I may say we're gonna hit our subscapularis muscle for a crowd that is gonna know what that is. So it's talk to the person that you're at. And kind of like we were talking earlier with kind of toning down the Pilates language when someone first enters a studio.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

Right, don't make it intimidating. Yeah, don't make it intimidating over their heads. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Speak, speak to them and in yeah, and still teach them. So, you know, if I am calling and have a bunch of brand new students, I will say, all right, again, we're gonna take feet wide on the foot bar, or you could call it position two, or whatever you want to call it. Um, you know, talk them into the movement versus use language that they've not heard of because this is some of their first times experiencing it. Still educate them and give them that, but speak to the common language that you share first before you layer in anything on top.

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Fantastic. Yeah, yeah, and so we talked a little bit about how do you bring, you know, a male client maybe into the Pilates space and how you you you give the Pilates sort of a um a relevance to somebody who who might be um strength training as their primary, as their primary, you know, fitness modality. But let's let's sort of flip that. Um, so you have a Pilates client. At what point might you want us introduce them into strength training?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

As soon as they'll be acceptable to it. It's it's one of those things I I absolutely love the Pilates and love their former. It's been my sole career for the past 10 years, 11 years. Um, and it has so many great things, but there are limitations. Like every every there is no one modality that fits all. And anyone that will tell you that otherwise, I feel like that's one of the true, like hard black or white things that we can talk about. I'm lacking the word that I want to use for that, but like hard things that we can say is no one modality fits everyone. And only doing one modality limits you to a particular set of skills. So, yes, I love their form of that. Wants to be your primary source of workout, by all means do it. Doesn't mean no cardio, you should still be doing cardio, doesn't mean you shouldn't be doing weight training, because they are also all aspects that make us a full, well-rounded, healthy individual. Um, for the most part, and it's why I like pushing the boundaries of what the reformer can do, because I have lots of people that I've met through my uh YouTube and social media that say, hey, I so appreciate you utilizing the reformer as a tool because I don't have a gym close enough to me that I can go do weight training. You're teaching me how to use the reformer as a form of weight training. So I can do a reformer weight training style workout now to get that strength that I may lack in a true Pilates class, but also then still go enjoy Pilates class for what its benefits are.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

You said uh earlier and just now that you often use the reformer as a tool. Uh, what what are um and and certainly in video, you have some really lovely videos where you demonstrate what are some of the unique ways the reformer can show up in the fitness space.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Um again, we've said it a few times now is feedback. It's one of the best equipped pieces of equipment for instantaneous feedback of what you're doing, whether you're keeping it.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

I mean, I think that feedback piece is huge, right? Because it gives you so much, it gives you that information to respond to.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Yeah, you're either getting the bang of the carriage as soon as it hits the bumpers. It's feedback of, oh, I didn't control this closing, or it's the slackness in the straps, which we, you know, shouldn't have, or I can think of at least any exercise, um, that's giving you that instant, like, oh, I stopped paying attention, I stopped being mindful of what I'm doing, I lost control. Um, to me, that's the number one thing that Pilates teaches is control. Um, but yeah, it can do any and everything.

SPEAKER_01 46:54

Right. So I mean, I guess what I'm really trying to get at is even though you you you move into a space more fitness focused, you're still keeping a lot of those Pilates principles involved, right? It's it I'm just really continuing to come back to that cycle because I I just do think it's important for us as a larger community to kind of embrace that. All right, I have a question for you that goes back to men. And I just thought of this. So as the Pilates industry over the last 25 or 30 years has grown, because it is primarily grown through um continuing education that was driven by women, we talk an awful lot about the female lifespan and how we change our approach to training to meet people where they're at. Um in terms of let's let's talk about the male lifespan and and in particular, I think I want to talk more really about um fitness. Uh how do you alter your approach to a client who is 60 or 65, a male client who's 60 or 65, and a male client who is 20 or 25, but both are coming in and saying, you know what? Ultimately I want to bodybuild.

SPEAKER_00 48:13

Uh there are some changes, but also there in certain ways that I don't feel there's changes physically of how you should approach it mentally and planning-wise, should be relatively the same to me. Um, and that's most of my studio when I had my physical studio was clientele 65 plus. I think I'd say 85% of my clientele was that. Grant, they were mostly women, but did have men that were older. And actually, my oldest client I ever trained was a 94-year-old male. Um, biggest thing is that again, men I find a lot of times are the ones that were having some knee replacements. We really have to focus on the joints and stuff like that. So it's one of those things that for say a young male, I will be fine with a little bit more higher impact or faster movement. Um, utilizing their former, um, also lots of unilateral work for them versus I might would back off on that for someone that is 65. Like instead of doing as many single-leg uh leg presses or anything like that, I might would focus a little bit more on double leg, just so that we're being more supportive of their joints. Um and also I find again, male and really for everyone, posture can be another big thing. So again, we're utilizing different things like the box of having just the sitting box to say, hey, we're still gonna get you seated doing rows, but because seated cross leg may not be within your body's capabilities, we're gonna have you sit up on a box so that you can still participate and do this versus again, a younger male client may not have those same issues.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

And what have your impressions over the years? How has Pilates changed from your perspective? Um, and and specifically your perspective as a male instructor?

SPEAKER_00 50:12

It's one of those things that I I feel like when I first got into the space, it was very classical and then it was contemporary that was there, but it wasn't it wasn't too far still from the classical method. Since then, I feel like it's been a progression of we've gone from contemporary to athletic, from athletic now to more gym focused. Um, and it's just expanding, which I love. I I'm someone I I've never lived in the box, I don't know where the box is. So, like thinking outside the box is second nature to me. And I'm so curious about things. I want to see every possible way that it can work because and it's what I personally, my philosophy on teaching and that every teacher should go into is if you even if you love classical and you want to teach nothing but class school, what if you have a client that can't do some of the moves? Don't you want to have different things available to say, hey, you can't do this because of whatever limitations you have? Now, here's a way that's not in that method that I can still get you to do what I'm asking you to do.

SPEAKER_01 51:22

Right. You find you find the can with what people can do.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Yeah. And that transcends gender. That's just sort of a beautiful approach for everybody. Yeah. All right, Reed, before we get into the rapid fire, just cycling back to what we started with toxic masculinity and and what is healthy masculinity. What are what are some recommendations that you might have for people to help sort of unpack that relationship to masculinity?

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Um, again, I think it comes back to uh a little bit of kind of like what we were just talking about is being being curious about what we perceive and we define ourselves as masculinity, but also what we have learned. Um, it's kind of like, you know, with any learning any modality or anything, a lot of times when we first go into a yoga training or something like that, we may say, hey, like I personally did hot power yoga. I was like, hey, this is the number one form of yoga. I don't want to learn anything about yin yoga, but then I got curious because I stopped saying and stopped surrounding myself with people exactly like me and said, you know what, let me give this a try. Let me go try this. Or again, when I first got into yoga, period, to kind of take it back to that is I went from being bodybuilder and thinking, oh, I'll breeze through this, this will be super easy, to being humbled by a new experience. And I think that's a way to kind of unpack your views on masculinity is to sit down and say, all right, what do I define as masculine? What do I define as not masculine? And again, for a lot of us, it comes down to things like emotion or being allowed to fail or showing signs of weakness when in reality those are your strengths. That's what makes you a person, makes you lovable, that's what makes you a good be it father to your family, you know, husband to your significant other. Like it's it's one of those things of sitting down and saying, Hey, am I okay with learning that I don't need to necessarily always act and believe wholeheartedly with the environment I grew up in or the people I surrounded myself? Let me go be curious and see how other communities act and what they perceive as say masculine or feminine type thing.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

So are you saying uh in essence challenge um perceptions or the the stereotypical perceptions and be willing to explore?

SPEAKER_00 54:01

Yeah, we have we have lots of bias, and you again you kind of have to relate everything back to what is that person's point of view? Where how do they, you know, be it myself, what is my point of view of you know the environment that I'm in versus what is someone else's point of view to the environment that you're in, kind of thing, and how can I again just challenge what I have been maybe told to believe, not necessarily I hate to use that word toll, but what did I grow up because of the people around me and how they believed? Did I take time to question is this fact or is this just how from their point of view they believe that someone should act to be masculine? Again, to me, masculinity, the the most pivotal masculine person I can think of and is Aragorn to relate it to uh Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings. Yeah, like he is the epitome of masculinity. He's the guy that is essentially foretold to be the king, yet he's not marching in there like demanding I'm supposed to be the king. He's coming in with the most humility and has the most grace towards other people, especially those less than than him. Uh, that he's more shows up as a protector of a caring individual. And that's where I think a lot of times that masculinity can get a bad rep in certain ways, is that it has to be so domineering. No, compassion is one of the best things that all of us can have, be it masculine or feminine.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

Okay, so today in on social media, in the news, in our political environment, uh that hypermasculinity is showing up as being desirous. Yeah. Um what's lovely is again, organically in who you are and how you show up, you you you model behavior that offers another option. Um what would you say to the way in which or or how would you hope people would show up uh to temper that extreme?

SPEAKER_00 56:29

I think one of the best ways again is having people show up in a way that is because I I find a lot of times to me personally, when I see someone exhibiting those hyper-masculine traits or can sometimes be toxic masculine traits, is that it it's from a point of fear, a lot of times for them, because they have only been around or been taught to be that way, and that that is the only form of masculinity that is truly masculine. Um and to show up and say, Hey, I can be in that environment too. I can also be, you know, compassionate and everything. Is a a weird, again, kind of segue is uh when I was going through yoga training, and still to this day, I I grew up hunting and fishing. So when I went through yoga training, some of my classmates found out, they're like, You hunt? How can you be in yoga and hunt? Like you're you're killing life. And I'm like, because I don't go out, I'm not out here necessarily trophy hunting, I'm doing it in a way that is very much of, hey, I'm honoring the animal that I am gonna hunt and kill. I'm going to, you know, utilize all of it that I can kind of thing. And it's I'm utilizing it for food and sustenance. I'm not doing it just for show type thing. Um, and that's what I find a lot of the hyper masculine, it's a very much a show boating kind of thing versus saying, hey, who who am I truly deep down? And I find a lot of times it's kind of like bullies. Bullies tend to be very loud when really they are some of the most insecure type people out there. So it's going to them and say, Hey, it's okay to let down that mask. I may have been the first person to ever tell you you can leave but lead lead with compassion and not assumption. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:22

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Yeah. Uh fantastic. Okay. Now we are going to go into some rapid fire questions. All right. What is your definition of Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 58:32

A movement system with a philosophy behind it for the shortest, simplest fact.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

What is that? Like if you could encapsulate what that philosophy is.

SPEAKER_00 58:42

Um, again, to me, the number one portion of that philosophy is control. Because I think control then leads into the breathing, leads into the flow, leads into all the different aspects of the Pilates principles. And that's why I think Pilates is its most beautiful form is full body control.

SPEAKER_01 58:59

Full body control. And and helpful, has that been helpful to you? We've been talking a lot about fitness, but also in your yoga practice.

SPEAKER_00 59:06

Yeah, very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 59:08

What is your favorite piece of Pilates equipment, big or small, and why?

SPEAKER_00 59:12

The reformer, hands down. It's it's my bread and butter. It's to me the thing that I I it's such a beautiful tool. It's it was one of the best things he ever created because it can do so much.

SPEAKER_01 59:24

It can the universal reformer.

SPEAKER_00 59:27

Yeah, it's it is like I I do love the Cadillac, I do love the chair. It's one of the things I didn't miss is having a chair. Um, but I the reformer is hands down one of the best things out there, I think.

SPEAKER_01 59:37

All right. What is one misunderstanding about Pilates or the profession you wish more people understood?

SPEAKER_00 59:45

Uh it's probably that um you have to come up with something new every single class. I I think too too many of us are focused on um every class, I have to come up with the most creative, unique flow over and over and over again. And I think that is doing nothing but burn you out. Not to say don't get in there and play and try new things. But my I have taught roughly the same exact beginner class with minor variations since I started teaching Pilates. And to this day, be it beginners, my intermediate students, my advanced students, they still love that class because it is just such a good foundational training.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Well, I think you're so right there. Like I think we we we put so much pressure on ourselves for it to be completely unique or or to you know uh uh one up ourselves. Like we we have this competition against ourselves every day, uh every day, every client, every class. And the reality is your clients also need to learn and and they can't learn if every single time it's novel and completely new.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

A thousand percent I couldn't agree more, and it's one of the things that I give again a lot of the classical Plotties, you know. I I know me and classical police teachers aren't haven't always been um not a lot um for lack of a better term, but it is one of the things that I give them is uh it being able to do similar routines because that's such a good benchmark to show how I've grown is all right, let me learn this benchmark routine and then go try a bunch of different other stuff, then come back to it. Have I improved in certain areas? Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:24

It's a perfect assessment. What is it, the 80-20 rule? Like give them 80% that they they have experienced before that they can integrate and go deeper with, and then and then bring in the a novel 20%.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Yeah, sprinkle that little fun stuff in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:37

Sprinkle it in. Yeah, exactly. Um that's great. What's one habit that you do religiously that complements your Pilates practice?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Other than having a reformer in my house, um it's I think just being curious about it. I I constantly am drawn back because I'm always curious as to what I can do next on it. I I'm still finding new things that I can do with the reformer, which is that that is my Pilates practice. That is my bread and butter. Not to say that I don't love the other pieces of equipment or other aspects of Pilates, but I love being curious about it, not not feeling like I know everything when it comes to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:16

For you, your curiosity leads to creativity, doesn't it? I mean, that's clear in your videos, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

Yeah, a hundred percent. Is it's I'm constantly wanting to push boundaries and try try things and fail at things. There's times where I get on there, I'm like, oh, maybe this will be good. And I'm like, oh, that was terrible. Why did I think that was gonna be a good idea? Then I'll sometimes I'll be like, oh, this and then I'll be like, oh my god, this is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:38

Yeah, I love I love the humility in that though. That's fantastic. You've got you've gotta have some fails to have your successes.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:45

It's one of the things too, I try to tell people. I I am known in certain you know, circles of the Pilates community, but uh, do I consider myself the best Pilates instructor out there? Absolutely not. Do I but there's tons of people that can teach the method and Pilates, even athletic Pilates maybe better than I can. But what I'm excellent at is teaching it from my point of view. And for a lot of people that resonates, and that's just it.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:10

I don't know why anybody has to be the the best Pilates teacher.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

I feel like there's this weird competition. It's why I used to be on social media. Anyone that follows me on Instagram probably knows that I used to post like three times a week and just be all on there, and I just kind of got burnt out because I feel like it started to become a competition of so many. There's been this giant influx of new instructors, obviously, over the past probably five or six years as Pilates has gone from being kind of a what is that to now it's a household name. I never have to teach anyone what Pilates is anymore because everyone's seen it at least. Um, and I feel like with that it's become again, I have to be the best. I have to, and I'm just like, I don't want to eat part of that rat race.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

It's the same thing I kind of saw with yoga back in the days. Yoga kind of hit a peak and then like the bubble burst and things kind of calm back down. And that's um kind of think Pilates might end up doing that here.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:03

Yeah, the calming back down is you know, um, that that might be nice. Yeah. Uh but I love that uh, you know, the the idea is is you know to be the best version of yourself as a teacher.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:16

Yeah, absolutely. That's that's the only competition I want to do, is just every day I keep learning what I can learn to be able to bring as much as I can to my students. Because that and that's another thing I would say for anyone listening out there that is a plies instructor, is whatever anyone else tells you about your practice, as long as your students are loving what you're bringing, that's all that matters. It doesn't matter if you're teaching classical, contemporary, if you're using it as a tool, if you're using it for what it's made for, all doesn't matter what your students, the people who are paying you and enjoying your time, they're the ones who matter.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

If they're seeing positive changes in their health and their well-being and their fitness, right? Then bam. Do you have any books or podcasts you would recommend?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:00

Um books, I would say Don't Shoot the Dog by Karen Pryor.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

Um, I thought you were telling me that.

unknown 1:05:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:09

Um, no, that was a uh a book on training that I read when I was working at Zoo. It was uh book that we learned all about positive reinforcement training for animals, because you obviously can't make a gorilla do anything a gorilla doesn't want to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:23

Um and it's it's kind of a good way to work with your bunch of listeners would like to like being acquainted to gorillas. No kidding.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:30

Yeah, and and but but I mean it's so cool. Like I saw a video yesterday online of a a guy training an octopus to play the piano, and you can't force octopus to play the piano, but you can slowly get it to react and do certain things.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

Yeah, oh fantastic. That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:44

And I think that's a great for any trainers out there if you're wanting to help improve your clients rather than using like no, don't do it this way, is instead focus on the positive. When someone does something with perfect form, yes, give them, give them that that feedback. Um, I like a lot of philosophy books actually. Um, so anything that's focused on Socrates, because again, I it's where I get the curiosity from. I love asking questions, love knowing why, um, even though sometimes it gets me in trouble. We were talking about Lord of the Rings earlier. It's one of the ultimate books out there, I think. Um, and then I honestly am not the biggest podcast watcher. YouTube is like my main just watching different videos on YouTube button and everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:29

Any anything stand out to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:31

No, again, I'm I'm a curious guy. So my my algorithms on everything is just all over the place. It it could be Pilates one day, it could be figure you out. Yeah, it could be, you know, proper farming techniques the next. So God knows.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

That's fantastic. All right, before we conclude for the day, how can listeners find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:50

So you can find me at my website, AtlantisFitnessandplates.com, uh, also my YouTube channel, which is Atlantis Fitness and Pilates, and my Instagram, which is the same. Those are my main three areas.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:03

All right. Uh Reed Flanagan. I I want to thank you so much for coming in for having this conversation. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:09

Appreciate y'all for having me and uh hope to be back sometime. Fantastic.