SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hi, I'm Paul Endelman, Director of Business Development at Balance Body, here to take over as host for a guest that needs no introduction. Our very own Joy Paleo will be in the interview seat. But first, let's check in. Today we're going to take it back to where we all started. The breath. In through the nose for four. Out for four. On your next inhale, imagine the breath expanding downward to your lower abdomen, filling the space with air. If you feel up for it, hold it there for one, two, three, and exhale. Two more times. Now imagine the breath expanding at your rib cage, like a tire inflating. Optional hold here for one, two, three, and release out for one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, and eight. If you're able to, start integrating some spinal flexion. As you breathe in, bring the small of your back forward while maintaining your posture. Breathe out and arch your back. Bringing your shoulders forward for a seated or standing cat cow. Three of those. Really thinking about how you can articulate your spine through movement. With this last intentional breath together, I want you to think about one thing you're passionate about. When did you first notice this passion? How has your relationship to it changed since your first experience? Has it matured with time? Or is it new to you? Thank you for that time. Today we have Joy Paleo in the interview seat, founder of Bodywise Connection, Director of Education at Balanced Body, and International Lecturer. Joy brings a creative and empathetic teaching style informed by the latest movement science. Joy's qualifications include a master's in applied physiology from Columbia University, NPCP and ACSM certifications, and trainings across Physical Mind Institute, Gyrotonic, Coralline, and Bodhi suspension system. Unless this is your first episode, you are already familiar with the engaging and curious nature that Joy brings to every endeavor. We are so excited to highlight her journey today. Welcome, Joy. Hi, Joy. Can you give us a quick overview of your career?

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Oh, geez. An overview of my career. I think it's a little hard for me to, you know, I'm not used to being on this side of the fence. Uh, and I'm struggling with already not wanting to ask you a question, Paul. So let me see, an overview of my career. I think I've been the improbable and unlikely Pilates instructor my entire career. And by being the improbable and unlikely Pilates instructor, I have found spaces that allowed me to just flourish. So let me explain. I did not come in through the dance door. I did not find Pilates because it did something fantastic or fabulous for me. I literally like stumbled across it. Um, and I stumbled across it at a time in my life where I was, I was entering into the fitness world as a trainer. I had just dealt with sort of, I had had my son, I had gained a tremendous amount of weight, and I sort of found a path back to myself through physical activity. So I became a pilot, I became a personal trainer because as you do, I found this great thing for myself. I wanted to share it, and I became a personal trainer. In becoming a personal trainer, I was interested in being knowing more. I went to graduate school. And while I was in graduate school, I was working for a PT. And uh we were working it using warm water pools to get people feeling confident and strong. And so literally the PT turned to me and said, Well, have you heard of Pilates? Because it's the next best thing to water to get people out of the water and moving well. And um I asked a friend who asked a friend and literally found an instructor local, Connie Borho, went into her basement with her equipment down in her basement. And I I'll never forget, I left that basement and I was hooked. Um, and that's that's how I started. And my entire career was kind of based off of that. Um every opportunity I had was, you know, I found a studio in New York that that just had the, you know, the perfect mix of talented teachers who were um had great senses of humor and were open to teaching in a way that if it was any other studio in New York City, I guarantee you I wouldn't have stayed. Um do you I I was gonna say, do you remember the the late 90s? But do you remember the late 90s, Paul?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

I do. I have a different memory than you probably would.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

But how old were you in the late 90s?

SPEAKER_00 6:13

I was about 10.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah. So late 90s, right? I'm I'm roaming around New New York and I'm like looking for somebody to teach me Pilates, and I'm really deathly afraid that they're gonna reject me because I don't look like everybody else. I don't move like everybody else. I'm not as strong as everybody else. And I happened to walk into movements of foot with Leslie Powell and Doris Hall, and we just rolled around and laughed our asses off for the entire training. I couldn't even tell you if I learned downstretch or upstretch or any of the really official terms, but I left with a huge, profound love of teaching, of movement, of Pilates foundations, and that sums up my entire career.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah. Do you remember what was so different about like other movement? Uh about how you felt after Connie's class in her basement versus how you felt about like other movement classes you had done that made you that feel like that hook?

SPEAKER_02 7:10

Yeah. Um honestly, it's the the idea of feeling something. When I had that session with Connie, I remember both during it and through it, um doing movements. I had, I mean, we did short spine. I was like, there's no place on a gym floor that you're doing something like a short spine, right? Um and I just remember as I got off the equipment, I felt like I accomplished something that was not something I never would have accomplished before. I felt graceful, I felt strong, I felt connected and coordinated. Uh, and I was like, okay, you know what? This is what I want to feel all the time. Uh, and it was unlike any other mood, like like fitness space I had ever been in. Um, and the focus was on, well, how does that feel? I was like, what do you mean? How does that feel? Like, like she would ask me, how does that feel? And I would have no words for her because I was like, well, no one ever asked me how that feels. Everybody's just telling me to do more. Um, so so it was the how does that feel? That that that was like, okay, this is what people need to connect to themselves. And if you're gonna make change, physical change, finding that in yourself is actually the first place to start. So anyway, so literally we walked up basement steps and I was like, Connie, I feel like we just had a carnal experience. Like this, like I it was just mind-blowing. Um, and she said to me, that happens.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Well, it's fair. I I think a lot of people have that experience. I have a I think I have a little jealousy that I didn't get that because I just was always around it.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

But most of the people at some point in their careers that are professional Pilates instructors have described that feeling of like walking onto a stud out of a studio for the first time and being like, I I'm in love. Like I I this is different.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Right. And I think that that like that piece of it is the piece that has that has really ignited my entire career. I mean, look, I tell these stories for a reason. When when I was pregnant with my son, I gained a lot of weight, right? I go in to get weighed. They say to me, Oh, we'll come back, put the robe on, we'll come back and we'll take your weight. And I would quickly get on the scale and I I would uh I would see my weight and I'd be like, oh, damn, that's too high. So I would shave off five pounds. Well, you do that in the beginning of a pregnancy. What happens by the end of the pregnancy? The my weight on my chart was about 60 to 70 pounds, different than right, uh than what my actual weight was. So I go in, they say, we're gonna induce you, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens. So finally I pull the doctor's tie as he's walking by me and I whisper my weight into his ear and he looks down at my chart and he looks at me and he looks at my chart and he looks at me and he shakes his head. Well, the anesthesiologist came in, upped my pitocin, out came my son. So, so uh when I walked into a Pilates studio, I did not see myself walking into a studio. So I went into a basement, right? I came out of that basement and I was like, I could do this.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

That's that is empowering. And and and I think that's shaped my approach for my entire career.

unknown 10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

And that's why I say I'm the unlikely or improbable Pilates instructor, because it was never on the radar.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:46

Yeah. And I like many people, never on the radar. And there's an experience you have, you fall in love, and and that's it.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

You're hooked.

SPEAKER_00 10:56

Uh how does your research background uh inform you and your role as a director of education in Bellice Body?

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Um, I think the answer to that is curiosity. Um you know when you start teaching, you learn. Like when you teach, you learn, right? That's just the that's just the way it is. So I wanted to teach teachers because I actually wanted to learn. Um, and the the more I taught, the more I thought. Um the questions from my students spurred more questions in me. Uh and it just started to fuel a cycle of curiosity. Um, when I was taking my Pilates training, I was also taking getting my master's degree at the same time. So I had an opportunity to really do uh in physiology. So we we did, we did a lot of research on you know, uh cellular cellular, you know, changes and exercise-induced changes. Uh and the questions that are asked in research and the way in which you look at research and then apply it to a practical environment like a like a personal training environment or a Pilates studio, uh, felt like a powerful pairing. And so now as the director of education, I like take that curiosity into all of our, you know, I'm gonna call them problem-solving moments. Like, okay, you know, we're in a new environment with Pilates. Pilates is exploding. What is the role of education? How do people identify with Pilates today versus when I founded and went into Connie's basement that day? Um, what are the changes? And from those changes, what can we extrapolate in, you know, um, in how we meet the student of today, how we train our educators. So I think it's the research mindset and the curiosity that shapes the the way in which we problem solve. Yeah. And that affects, I think, everything.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah. There's a there's a I've heard like science and research described as like constantly searching for what you got wrong.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Yeah. And I think like that, it seems like that's really informing how you approach like these changes over time in the current environment.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

But that's also an approach, like that's a decision to make the the approach of constantly asking the question to see, you know, where the fault lines might be. The other approach sometimes to research is what what singular question could I answer that I know I'm going to be right at the end? So so I try not to go down that road. I don't want affirmation of the things I kind of already know. Um, instead, I'd like to, I'd like to stress the system and find the fault lines, which by the way is the basic tenets of all training.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah. So you talked about kind of Connie and Leslie and kind of exploring New York and discovering Pilates. What was the how did you end up in Sacramento as the director of education for Balanced Body?

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Okay, so that's that it that's another story. Um so uh um I started teacher training for the Physical Mind Institute. Um, and I think that was close to the turn of the century, 2000, 2001-ish. And um when Balanced Body started their teacher training, I literally got a phone call from Al Harrison and he said, uh, hey, you know, and and full disclosure, it was I had left physical mind, literally left physical mind, hung up the phone, you know, and and and thought, crap, what am I gonna do now? Because I that was a really nice gig doing the teacher training, and I'm gonna miss it. Within days, uh, Al called. Uh so I started doing the teacher training for Balanced Body. Uh I in the process of doing the teacher training from Balanced Body, I also started doing some teachings at Pilates on Tour. That's actually where we met at the Pilates on Tours. Uh, also stories for another day. Um and and uh in in the context of working with the team, I always volunteered. I just, you know, I love production. So I always volunteered before. I was always there for the loadout. And I think I kind of just became a roadie. Uh and when balanced body education was expanding and was adding things like Bodhi and Coralline, uh, Al called and said, you know, Nora and I talked, and we really need some support on the education side. Are you interested in helping us out? So literally, Al's been that little like fairy on my shoulder. Uh I'm still waiting for him to call me now to tell me what my next gig is. Um, and so it was it was it was through the teacher training and through the associations. Um and and you know, uh, you know, I'm saying Al called, but Nora was very much a part of that. And and and you know, Nora's influence and our sort of immediate connection around teaching and our our our collaborative uh way of approaching the work was was was you know, I'm sure part of that from the very beginning.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah. Yeah, I we don't talk about those early POTs. It's like how people talk about their college years for me. It's a little um so as somebody who has experience in both the apprenticeship and module-based teacher training models, what are some of the benefits and drawbacks? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:48

Um, physical mind was more of an apprenticeship model. I myself trained um in more of that apprenticeship model. You know, I get to say the, well, back in my day, we all made fig, you know, stick figures uh instead of having pictures and videos and and all manner of content. The apprenticeship model was lovely because it was immersive. You were in a studio. Like I could tell you to this day the smell of the studio, right? We were just in there. I remember being in there for a snowstorm. And I remember what Manhattan felt like when everything was all quiet and it was snowing outside and we're rolling like a ball, right? Um uh I could smell the steam heat, I could see the equipment. Um so you're in this immersive sensory experience through the entirety of the training. Your class became really a cohesive class. Um, you know, and and some of those relationships, many of those relationships follow you throughout the rest of your career. The modular um model is one where it allows for much more flexibility, right? Um you're you can take the modules at your leisure as you can afford to take them. Uh, you can take them from multiple teachers. So you get to hear different voices, which is just different. One's not better. You know, I talk about, you know, the smell and the feel of New York, but you know what? I also remember what it was like to try, you know, to deal with the traffic and to get on the train. And um, you know, so so the flexibility and the flexibility today today is really important. Also, it's the availability and the accessibility. You are more likely today to have teachers around you um than you were then. So that the time commitment across the lifespan of the education is very, very different. Um, but but you you in either case, what you do need to seek out as a student is is finding teachers that care to nurture your journey. Um that it not only just works for your schedule, but it works for who you want to become as an instructor. Uh, and that you you do take the time to make sure that the voices that are speaking to you resonate with you and inspire you.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah. I I've now taken modules with a few of our educators, right? And uh I don't when people ask me like who my favorite is, it really is just I tell them it doesn't actually matter what my answer is. What matters is whoever has the style that feels the most like it is anchored to you and hits you in the right place, uh, and kind of even in the moment you are in your journey and your kind of and and that and that might change, which is one of the beautiful things about having multiple teachers to choose from or multiple voices.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

Um, but yeah, but that's so important because people ask me all the time, oh well, should I do a pilot three times a week, or should I add strength training, or should I do a spin class? And my answer is usually you're gonna do the thing you can't, you, you will continue to do. Yeah. Right? Don't do the one-off, do the thing that resonates with you, that speaks to you. And all of it will have its value, but it will only have value if it's something you show up for. And it's the same thing with the teacher training.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah. Um, what is what is one of the most impactful moments you've had as an educator? We talked a little bit about like some of the moments as a student you had. But what's one of the most impactful moments you've had as an educator?

SPEAKER_02 20:40

Um I had a moment where recently where someone that I taught from one of my first classes contacted me to let me know that they were moving, but that they were still teaching. And and in a really casual conversation, just alluded to the fact that the time we spent together impacted where they are today. And to me, like like teaching is a qu teaching is a quiet thing, meaning I show up to a class and I'm gonna give my offerings, whatever they are, and I don't know how they're gonna land. I don't know if if if everybody likes me. I don't know if they're getting the material. Um, and and very often the people who give you sort of that resting face where that you're really like, I got no idea what's happening over there, are usually the ones at the end that come up to you and and and and have are the most effusive. Um and so when you when you have somebody who kind of like, you know, here I am doing this director of education thing, and we're at POTs and we're all over the place, and and someone kind of steps. out of your past and just taps you on the shoulder to say the time we spent together mattered.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

I think that's the most impactful to me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah. That's uh I recently had a friend mention I the first time we met and his first like memory of me and it was like 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

And it just just knowing that somebody has that memory is like really it like it hits you really close to Yeah and they're carrying it right.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah there's like an o there's an honesty to that like a good feeling that people it's worth them carrying. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Um what has been one of your biggest challenges so far of the career of your career um honestly I'm going to say stepping into Alanor's shoes as a director of education was by far the biggest challenge. But stepping into those shoes at the intersection of a post-COVID Pilates world was really like like it was like it was it was like a wave hit. Yeah yeah yeah I I felt yeah I felt like I totally misjudged the wave that was coming in and I had a good tumble. Yeah yeah um and so so that's really those two factors coming together at the same time have been really the biggest impacts. Uh what's been a good outcome of all of that is I think I'm very clear-eyed and grounded in okay there's there's this bigness around me there are these expectations around me um and there's really this energy behind Pilates. So the words and the wisdom we give to new educators, which is who do you want to become and how do you want to show up are the questions I kept asking myself like who and by who do you want to become really turned into um as an industry where do we want to see Pilates go? Where do we want to see Pilates become right? Because it's still now it's really blossoming in a whole different way. And how does balanced body show up like so what was really a big mindset shift mindset shift for me was taking it from the personal and now moving it more into there's there's there are a lot of people I'm responsible to there are a lot of things I'm now accountable for. And if I if we're going to move this engine uh in the direction of supporting Pilates, what does that look like? So you put all that together right that felt like a lot and Madeline Black was really I I I did sort of a little bit of a listening tour and I talked to a lot of folks when this was first happening and Madeline Black kind of nodded she leaned into the Zoom and she said to me that's a lot of energy to hold and I was like oh and that's when I think the first time I realized I might be tumbling in a wave and and I and I said well my intention is hopefully not to hold it but to pass it on to pass it through. So those have been the that it's been it's been a a a moment of challenge for sure.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah yeah we've talked a lot about like this the idea of stewardship of this thing. Yeah and like stepping from a being like in inside to like a how do I how do you pass it on?

SPEAKER_02 25:30

And that was the big question for me is sustainability, right? Like like um again these one of the beautiful things uh about uh having had that moment of real tumult was you know I had to go into do a lot of leadership training, read a lot of books, a lot of Brene Brown um and and and and in large part because Brene's approach is very apropos to a Pilates community and it's how do we lead with empathy? How do we show up for each other? How do we care about each other while we're trying to do big things. And we can do big things and still show respect. And we need to respect those that came before us while also giving agency to a new generation that's finding us. Yeah there's a lot of moving parts there, right? Yeah uh and and and how do we do that and always kind of keep an eye on on the question that we should keep asking ourselves what is Pilates?

SPEAKER_01 26:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:34

Um because it means you got to show up.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

You know?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

And what is it for the individual?

SPEAKER_02 26:41

What is it for the individual? And it's not it's gonna be a unique definition to each individual but I think it comes back to that first feeling I had with Connie which was I had a feeling an experience um and and ultimately like like if we're trying to give way for people's experience we have to really open the door and the possibility to that.

SPEAKER_00 27:04

Yeah yeah and I think you really only get that depth through the idea of empathy like you're talking about and like the and the mirror side of that empathy which is the curiosity right like how do you it's different for everybody and you want to broaden it over time. That's the only way you make like a sustainable version of Pilates in the world is make it broad enough for people to engage in the way that works for them.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Right. Do do what's going to work for you. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Yeah and so it really is founded in like empathy and curiosity. I think that's why people really love when you're at Pilates on tour when you kind of start with that question of like what is Pilates and answer it for yourself. Put it up on the board. What is you get 30 different versions of what that answer is right and people get to see that diversity.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

But do you know what no one answers no one says knee stretches right right that's true but they they answer it's a movement method and it's a it's a feeling it's an experience it's empowerment it's uh it it it is a method of exercise it is so it's it's um it's it's really been interesting. So how do you steward something? Yeah that that right and so so it comes back to leading with empathy and care because that's the that's sort of the the foundation of it. Pilates Perspectives is brought to you by Balanced Body. Pilates isn't really about how you look it's about moving better through your day reaching bending climbing stairs and lifting bags and boxes balanced body equipment is designed to meet you where you are in your practice and support your progression. Our handcrafted equipment features innovations to help you move better feel better and live better. Get $20 off your equipment order of $100 or more by visiting Pilates.com slash podcast dash discount and follow the pumps. What do you miss most about being a Pilates beginner I have a lot of people who come up to me and say how do I know what you know and and I I I think part of that me like wants to laugh because I'm like I don't even know what I like I don't know what I know right like I what you know this is the you know it's it's I I miss the not knowing and and being like being okay with not knowing I miss every experience being the first one um I miss the camaraderie of like leaning in into someone who who has more experience or knows more. And just sort of being a blank slate like it's all possibility in front of you.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

There's something beautiful about that like guided discovery.

SPEAKER_02 29:57

Yeah yeah and and because the Pilates is a learning journey it is a guided discovery and just kind of being okay in that space I I I do fear we rush to the end um and I'm like why are we rushing to the end? Because then it's the end. Yeah yeah right like like let's let's kind of be okay in the sticky uncomfortable moments and okay with I can't do that now.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Right? But I can do that maybe I can do that.

SPEAKER_00 30:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:32

You know, that's what practice is for.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Um so yeah I kind of miss that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Yeah I I think you know we talk about like the pros and cons of like modular versus apprenticeship models. I think if you hear when you hear people talk about like the apprenticeship model of education there was a lot more just like letting people hang in that like awkwardness of not being there yet.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Yes yeah yeah but like that's how you learn but that's how you learn and that's how it I mean that it that the look when I first started with the modular like when balanced body started with the modular system uh the Pilates community was like what are you doing? Um but there there is something to the modular where you know that each piece is going to click together and and that you're going to gain your knowledge along a journey. Yeah the apprentice the apprentice is you're definitely sitting in that uncomfortable like I don't know what's happening right now. Yeah I don't know when I'm gonna ever be like given the okay to get on that reformer like you know there was there was a lot of that that murky middle um but I think regardless it was always clear that learning this Pilates thing was was going to be sitting in that uncomfortable space for a little bit. Yeah yeah um what's one thing you wish everyone knew before their first Pilates session so I just told you about mine right I had no idea what I was getting into someone said you should do this Pilates stuff. Um uh so the one thing I wish people knew going into their first Pilates session or education I'll do I'll do both uh their first Pilates like class that it should be your experience my I would say of all the the the things that I I'm I'm thinking about where Pilates is right now is is the experience I had with Connie now listen it was a one-to-one experience which is what we did back then and we don't really you know there's still a lot of the one-to-ones out there in the groups is for is find the space that A works for you right it makes it accessible you might want to go to a group class you want something a little more fitness forward you want to you want to have a deep dive into Pilates all that is to me fair game and open but ask yourself what it is you want to experience and um understand that it's going to be about your experience it's not going to be what the instructor is up there telling you to experience it's going to be what you come away with. And if if you ask yourself or you go in with that mindset then that's going to open the door to what's possible with Pilates. Regardless of whether or not you're putting a headphones on and you're watching a video or you've got a live person in front of you who's you know tweaking what you're doing it that experience should be yours. Yeah you know you also have traveled around now the entire world and seen Pilates adapted to different cultures and different experiences and different backgrounds um what what has that helped you discover about Pilates for you everybody in like when you well so so yes we've we've had this beautiful opportunity like different cultures um um you know different people who are coming with different intentions people who are coming to to but they're coming to one of our events so they're already sort of like they they know that there's something here that resonates for them um no matter where we go no matter what we teach it could be a Pilates on tour it could be a module it could it could be a workshop when you get into a group of people who are invested in Pilates the Pilates journey in the method in the in in the movement and movement education it's it it's it doesn't matter what your language is it doesn't matter what your culture is it all of that really just melts away and and everybody is there to talk about the pelvic floor or everybody is there to explore this you know the hip flexors and and their relationship to whatever the topic of the workshop is and everybody is there to to to to work on on deepening themselves in the work. And that common language it reminds us that we actually all want the same things we all want to be connected to each other. We all want to belong we all want to feel something matters and and it doesn't matter where you are in the world it's all exactly the same.

SPEAKER_00 35:48

Yeah it's that element of exploration and like really having a common intention is really and at the end of the day everybody wants to like share something that they believe helps others.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Yeah right it's it's it's such a lovely way to be in the world right you share something that somebody it doesn't it it it really doesn't matter if it's the best workout ever or the most intimate little details you're sharing in a private clients get up off of the machines or the mat and they look you in the eye and they say oh my God I feel so much better.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Yeah right yeah that and that feeling is what's driven everybody to be at these events or at the trainings at the whatever it is. That's right. And yeah that's that's a really warm feeling.

SPEAKER_02 36:38

Yeah and it's the through line it just pulls through it does it it it doesn't matter where in the world you are it's all the same what's the biggest challenge when you take what's you consider almost a passion and then turn it into a career I've thought about this one a lot um you know I I think I first of all I've always been oriented toward do what you love the money will work itself out it's how I sort of ran my studio when I had my studio in New York um I I should say it's how I ran my practice which then became a studio right because like that's it it started as just me and then it just sort of it was it just got you know organically grew that first sort of spurt in the early 2000s um and and I I I've always been someone who's followed my heart uh and that has always been enough the problem though is when you are like now you're like like here's the deal I went into that basement I loved the movement and then I started to run a studio and um you know my kids were little so I jam packed my clients in I could have had uh and I was raising my family on my income. Yeah so if I wanted 40 clients a week I booked 50. That meant some weeks I had 50. Yeah uh some weeks I had 35 and then I ran a teacher training on the weekend. So guess what went by the wayside? Yeah taking care of myself. Yeah yeah right so so um the problem with sometimes your your passion taking over like that is you actually don't do the very thing that inspires you the most. Yeah uh so if you are going to to take this passion and make it your vocation, make sure you always allow and keep that time for your for your own creative self, your the and the things that inspire you.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

It's it's do as I say, not as I do or did.

SPEAKER_00 39:00

Yeah yeah I mean I we you and I have both been to a lot of Plotties on tours now and I we used to have everybody walk out of the the morning workouts and the number one thing people would say is manna it's been a while since I did a class. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

I I I I I can't remember where I was and actually somebody cued me and put their hands on me and it was almost like I melted. I was like oh this is what it's like to be guided through this again yeah yeah yeah it's so it's really super important. Make sure you covet for yourself though and carve it out those spaces.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

So that leads into have you ever experienced burnout?

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Oh my God. Oh my God. Um I remember coming home from my studio and like I would I had a very short drive between my studio and my house. And so and my car is I always say my car is my private space. Like I don't want to drive with anybody and I love to take long drives uh and so I would park the car in the driveway and I would just sort of like sit in the car. And I remember once like sitting in the car and I would hear bang bang bang bang bang from the window above me. And it's my daughter and I don't know she's three or four and and she's like bang and she's like mommy mommy and I I remember just sitting in the car and being like I cannot take care of another human. I cannot say another word I cannot and it it it was you know these these moments of just being so emotionally drained. So yeah I I and and the thing is that you that I guess the follow-up question is how do you manage burnout one one is you strive not to get to that point. Yeah and you you create the spaces that you need to fill you always and you build your passion around that uh that's the first thing and the the second piece on burnout is nurture your own curiosity. And then the third thing about burnout is don't forget that the people in your life are uh your family and your friends uh matter the most uh and and if I could say one thing about getting caught in that wave and that tumult I I it's like the I've had to take time and say to family and friends I cannot prioritize you right now. If you can avoid having those conversations, avoid having those conversations. Be present for your family and your friends uh there's always time to work.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

Yeah I think I think sometimes people feel like there a burnout is almost structural now. And so I I I also want to ask like is there are there moments in the buildup to those moments when you felt like you had indications that it was happening and you could have like addressed it earlier.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

Yeah but you got to pay attention right yeah and so honestly one of the one of the best things would be um don't be the the unlikely Pilates instructor don't be the improbable Pilates instructor right be the you know conscious yeah the intentional intentional Pilates instructor and if you're gonna be a business owner an intentional business owner. Yeah and when you build out your business plan and when you build out your schedule and when you determine how much of your time and energy it you you want to you want to put into create this thing to your creation of your burnout then. Yeah and and you need to make sure what you are building resonates with who you are and it works in context of your family and your life goals. Yeah um so I think to combat burnout you you really actually need to start from the from the the very very beginning uh don't just stumble on it.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Yeah yeah yeah you're talking a little bit earlier about like the creative things that you almost need to keep a hold of I almost think sometimes those things can be a bit of a canary in the coal mine. Like if you have a creative habit and you start seeing it drop away.

SPEAKER_02 43:21

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Yes like you might be on that path right a hundred percent yes yeah it's it I think I think a lot of people struggle with that especially in our world where like people feel like they know the next step but they don't necessarily like I think we get we hear a lot from studio owners that they're like when did I sign up for managing people or doing admin and that's right. And they're not what they actually want to do is teach.

SPEAKER_02 43:46

That's right. That's right. I I think I was so unprepared like I I I'm ultimately and I think I've said this before I feel like I have an MBA because all the money I've lost in the In the in like and wasted, you know, going down rabbit holes and making bad decisions really ultimately were the learnings that that that you know make me you know have value today in this space, yeah. Um uh and and probably equate to what an MBA today would cost. Uh but I think people can take some of those learnings from others who have been in those positions and then make better choices for themselves. And yes, if if if you've got a love, a passion, and you start doing less and less of it, and that is one of the the, you know, if you're if you if you love movement, but then you teach it all the time, you know what, you're likely not gonna want to engage quite at the level you did before. Uh, these are all factors you need to think about as you as you you know, as you think about your why as you enter into this profession. And it is a profession. I don't care if it's five hours a week or 55 hours a week. You're engaging in a professional endeavor to teach others uh, you know, about their bodies and movement and health and well-being.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Yeah. What's one thing about you, preferably non-pilates, that you wish more people knew?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

I don't think I'm that interesting.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Um I beg to differ.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

Um what is the one thing? I really blocked this out. I saw the question. I was like, I don't think I don't know what that's I'm gonna answer again. Um that I actually am very uh I I have a this part people will probably not be surprised at I have a I have um a very active internal imagination. And I and for me, the creativity happens in the quiet spaces. So I'm always seeking quiet, I'm always seeking quiet spaces. And people see me as so extroverted and so performative and you know out in front. Um, but I actually really covet, you know, the quiet. And I won't say introverted, I don't, I don't, you know, I know a lot of us say, oh, we're really secret introverts. And maybe on some level I am, but it it's more to do with just being outside, being in a beautiful space, being quiet, and sort of letting my mind expand.

SPEAKER_01 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:25

Um, yeah. So I think that's that's probably the one. So so if you're at an event and I'm sort of off at a corner, that's probably why.

SPEAKER_00 46:34

Yeah, you need a second to collect.

SPEAKER_02 46:35

I just need a minute. It's sort of like my being in the driveway, and my daughter's bam, bam, bam, mommy, mommy. And I'm like, I just need a minute.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

That's what the closet full of boxes is for.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Um, what is your favorite non-Pilates hobby?

SPEAKER_02 46:51

Hmm. Uh, I just before we started, I was just owning up to I just bought a guitar that actually is far too good for my abilities at this moment. Um I love to sing and I love to play music, and it's something that's been in my past that I like to bring more into my present.

SPEAKER_00 47:15

How long has it been since you were like actively in that practice?

SPEAKER_02 47:18

Oh gosh. Uh so my son is 31. 31. And uh just before he was born was the last. So I did community theater after he was born, but just before he was born was sort of my last semi-professional show. I've almost got my equity. I had like finally got an equity job. I got a I got a role in nonsense. What could be better? I put a habit on, I get to sing and dance, do a little comedy. I was like, this is fantastic. And then I found out I was pregnant. Uh and that was sort of the last time I did it at that, at that level.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Well, that's awesome. I I did not know you were in musical theater.

SPEAKER_02 48:01

Oh my god, musical theater. Yeah. I don't know why all of life could not be an episode of Glee.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Um what uh what's your favorite musical?

SPEAKER_02 48:10

Oh, geez. Okay, so my favorite inspirational musical is is Lay Miz, just because I could put on the music, right? I can like just just just start singing at the top of my lungs, and you can't hear me because it's all so super loud. Um, and it's like, you know, it's it's all about overcoming oppression and people surviving, like like all manner of drama and trauma, and in the end, you know, persevering. Right. So so yeah, so that's always been my favorite.

unknown 48:39

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah, the um so my introduction to the first live musical performance I ever remember was going with Kenton, New York for the celebration of winning the lawsuit, and we saw uh Phantom.

SPEAKER_02 48:53

Phantom, Phantom's another, Phantom's another fave. Um, I think I I I I can't I'm trying to remember how many times I've seen Phantom, but Phantom is another favorite. And uh um try oh, and Wicked, Wicked, Wicked's another fun one to just turn on the soundtrack and just just jam out to it. Yeah. I I will confess that if I'm driving by myself, it's usually a musical theater soundtrack.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

That's perfect.

SPEAKER_02 49:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:21

Um, all right. I guess I can do the rapid fire questions now.

unknown 49:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Cool. All right. This is fun. All right, Joy. What is your definition of Pilates?

SPEAKER_02 49:34

Ha ha ha. Well, here's the problem. Everybody who knows me who knows I'm not rapid fire about anything, and I'm not gonna be rapid fire about this. Okay. Here, level one, Pilates was a guy, right? Another, you know, a human uh who created a method and apparatus to go with that method. So let's put that on a shelf. So that's one portion of it. Um, Pilates, over the years, that method has given way to various forms of practice that focus on the movement and movement education that gives the client a unique environment to feel and express themselves through movement. So Pilates has become now an environment that has an element of play, um has an element of um creating change in unique ways because you move the body through all the planes of motion, you move the spine, which you move all of the joints in a tensioned environment and in a way that mimics human play. Um and so it's expanded way beyond just the man and the method to be an experience.

SPEAKER_00 50:54

Wait, I have one more non-rapid fire question I thought of. So we're gonna backpedal.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

Yeah, backpedal. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Um, so I was I wanted so you described this moment with Connie where you felt like the joy of moving in a way that you hadn't felt before and this confidence of movement. Do you remember the first time you had a student have that feeling in front of you?

SPEAKER_02 51:18

Oh, yeah. Um uh so client. So yeah, yeah. I'll I'm gonna I'm gonna go with a client. I had my first studio was I think 800 square feet, and it was literally just me, a reformer, a trapeze table, and a ladder barrel, and a chair, right? Boom, boom, boom, boom. And I had this woman just like literally burst in, and I could still see her, Fiona True. Uh she she burst in and she was like, I I I've heard about this pilot stuff, and I really I want to do this. And and when can I get started? And so she came for her first session, and um, she had some hip dysplasia as a child, and she had some limitations, and she started off with all the limitations. These are things I can't do, I can't do, I can't do, I can't do, I can't do. And literally we had one session, just like the Connie situation. And and she got up, she walked outside, she went to her car, and then she did the same thing. She burst back in again. I had another client come in, right? She burst back in again, and she was like, I have never felt this good. And then she left. And I was like, okay. And and it was, you know, I I I you know, she came in and she started telling me, I can't do this, I can't do this, and this hurts, and that-da-da-da-da. And my brain was like, okay, what am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? And I was like, all right, uh, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna move, I'm gonna move her. I'm gonna use the equipment, I'm gonna use what I've learned, I'm gonna use the environment, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna move her. Um, and and um over oh she she came for many years and she was like, for her, she was like, you showed me all the things I could do.

SPEAKER_00 52:53

Yeah.

unknown 52:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:55

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 52:57

Um, what is your now we're back to rapid fire questions. Okay. What is your favorite piece of Pilates equipment, big or small, and why?

SPEAKER_02 53:04

You know, I forgot that you were gonna ask this. Um my you know, the trap table. Uh the trap table is just like its own unique space. You could do just about anything on it, um, uh right down to you know, hanging yourself upside down, which is not one of my favorites. So I have to make myself do it. Um I I love, I just love, you know, I it's the place I would start a client. Like I did a lot of privates. So it's the place I would start a client, it's the place I would end a client. So it's sort of like like we started the session there, and we we revved up and we did all the things we were gonna do, and then we came back, and it just sort of, it just put the capstone on it. So I always think of the of the trap table as as really just sort of that moment where it all comes together.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

What is one misunderstanding about either Pilates or your profession that you wish more people understood?

SPEAKER_02 54:01

So I'm probably gonna get in trouble for this. Um I I believe so strongly in the spaces we create and and all the positivity that comes out of them. But I wish people understood that the magic is not always in what we know. The magic is in actually getting out of the way and letting the client move. Um that that what we offer, how we offer it, the way in which the equipment provides feedback to the client, the way the client relates to the equipment and to us as as humans is so powerful that like I didn't have to fix Fiona. Yeah, right? I needed to give her the space to find what she was capable of doing, which then led her to moving more freely.

unknown 55:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:14

What is one habit that you do religiously that complements your Pilates practice?

SPEAKER_02 55:19

Uh every single morning I get up and I take I take that quiet time and I set my intention for the day. And what I can happily say is the part of my world that has always slipped, that like I've always given to others more than given to myself, is I I have a whole bunch of equipment literally right in my space. I take I take my first 10 or 15 minutes, I set an attempt intention, and then I I I really only take 20 minutes and I move for 20 minutes. Um, and that just sets a stage for everything.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

So that's good. I think more prod more pull audience instructors probably should remember the movement part.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

Yeah, just take 20 minutes. I mean, my big mistake was always like, I gotta give myself a killer workout. I'm like, you know what? I I'm I'm I'm meditating on my trap table. Oh no, oh, there's a roll down bar right here.

SPEAKER_01 56:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:21

So so you just take to just just take 10, 15, 20 minutes a day and do something for 10, 15, 20 minutes a day. Um and it it makes all the difference.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Do you have a few one to three apparently, Max, books or podcasts you recommend to our listeners?

SPEAKER_02 56:39

Oh, I got, you know, there's this podcast called Pilates Perspectives. No. So there's a book called The Thinking Body by Mabel Todd. And I have used it throughout my career. Uh and it's whenever I go, I go to, whenever I come up with, okay, what do I want to teach? And I come up with my thesis on, and this is where research also helped. What is my thesis? You know, I I I wanted uh and I teach on menopause. I'm gonna go to the literature, which is of course everybody wants to teach on like where they are in their own lifespan, right? Um uh so I go to the literature and I start to look at um menopause. And then my brain goes to the physiology behind it, right? I'm not so interested in like this the symptomology. I'm like, well, what's the what's what's behind that? Like what is happening in the body on a cellular level? Yeah. Um, because then you can build extrapolate that out. So so I ask all these questions, and then I think, well, given all of that, where does movement fit in? Where does where does where does strength training fit in? Where does Pilates fit in? Um, and then I start to build out my workshops. And usually I invite Mabel to that conversation. And I I will open, I will, I'll go back through the book. You I mean, I have my original copy is just so worn out. Um, it even has the scribbles of my daughter from when she was three, because that book was on the cat on the table all the time. And and usually the what I'm trying to capture somehow she's captured it in this book. So there's there's fascia, she's talking fascia before fascia was a thing. She's talking the integral, you know, when don't look at a muscle group, but rather look at the relationships and the organization and the way in which that informs the movement. It's like all in there and it's readable.

SPEAKER_01 58:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

And it's it's interesting and entertaining. You know, she starts basically with like, you know, um, just as you watch people, who they are, you know, the way an opera singer presents themselves is different than the way um somebody walking off to work in a corporate job, which is different than a child who is like going out to the playground, and how that informs who we are. It's all like, it's all in there. So, so Mabel Todd, the thinking body, it's like I think from 1927, but you can get it on Amazon. Uh, and I think everybody, along, along with, with, you know, return to life, I think everybody should be reading that book.

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Very cool.

SPEAKER_02 59:20

That's so that's the return to life, the the thinking body. And here's the thing, guys. Um, next time we do something like this, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have like a like like a like a beach novel to to reference for all of you guys, but I haven't read one of those in a long time.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Uh before we conclude, yeah. The softball of the day, where can our listeners find you?

SPEAKER_02 59:46

Here's the truth of the matter. I suck at social media, so thank God for working for Balanced Body. You can't um you can you can reach me at Balanced Body. Um I'm even gonna give you my email, guys. It's because it's so super easy. It's joyapilates.com. Um, certainly you could reach out to Balanced Body in any way, shape, or form. You could reach out to the education crew, education at Pilates.com, um, and you can get directly to me. I like to let everybody know that that my intention is to get to every single email. But um when we travel, it's nearly impossible. So if you are reaching out to me, please don't don't ever take offense and reach out to me again, and I will get back to you. Yeah. I have no, you could try my social handles and you could try LinkedIn, but that's gonna that's not gonna get you anywhere. So, Paul, uh oh. How does it feel being in that in the chair?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:40

Uh I mean it's fun. Yeah. We have conversations like this fairly often.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Yeah, always all the time. Yeah, yeah. It feels like just kind of hanging out with you, you know, in one of the one of our one of our balance body events.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:53

Yeah, so no, I mean it it's fun. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

All right.