SPEAKER_01 0:10

Hello and welcome to Pilates Perspectives. Today we'll be discussing movement and exercise as it relates to the neurodivergent brain with Dr. Julia C. Basso. Before we jump in, though, let's check in. Now, if you're driving, please keep both hands on the wheel. Otherwise, I invite you to place your right hand on your chest, right above your heart, and your left on your abdomen. Breathe into both hands or both places on your body. And just take slow, thoughtful inhales. And you decide on your count. Is it two, three, or four? And then exhale. Beautiful. Now, as we continue to take this moment of intention, I want you to think of your sensory experience. What's happening around you? And if you're not yet familiar, think of your sensory experience as the integration of all your senses to create a collective profile of all the input that your brain is taking in. Are you in a loud, bright space where there's a very distinct smell that is good or bad? Are you in a space that's potentially overstimulating? Are you in an office space with overhead lighting? Or is the lighting dimmed? There are multiple senses that are competing for your attention all the time, all at once. What are the senses that are competing for your attention right now? For today, I'd like you to think of a time where you fell to sensory integration, which is when your sensory system is completely regulated. This is completely personal to you. Most people might think of a quiet or a calming environment with just the right amount of input. But for some people, they might need more input. And for still others, it might be something like being at a concert. Take what works for you and focus on that scenario and focus on that in relationship to where you currently are and what's different. What is the space between where you are and where you feel integrated and where you would like to be? And now continue to breathe. What does that space, that space where you feel integrated, what does it look like? What does it feel like? Does it have a taste or a smell? Do you hear something or do you hear nothing? My challenge for you is to carve out another minute or two and to just think on this. And if you're up for it, try to integrate one element of that moment when you feel integrated into your day today. That can look like putting on your favorite song or dimming a bright light or even using a scent diffuser. Now take three more breaths and take your time. Okay. As always, I appreciate you taking that time to check in with me. Today we have on Dr. Julia C. Basso, assistant professor in the Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Tech University. The director of the Embodied Brain Lab, co-director of the Science and Art Movement Lab, Dr. Basso's work centers on the utility of mind-body movement practices to enhance social, emotional, and cognitive help and the neural mechanisms underlying such effects. You can find her work published in scientific reports, the journal of Alzheimer's Disease, Brain Plasticity, and Behavioral Brain Research. Dr. Basso has been featured across various news outlets, including the New York Times, NPR, BBC, and CBS's Mission Unstoppable with Miranda Cosgrove. Welcome, Julia. We're so excited today to have Dr. Julia Basso with us here on Pilates Perspectives. And today's title is Movement and the Neurodivergent Brain. Welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, we're so excited. Um, I have a million questions, and I'm gonna try and keep us two on task and on time. But uh first, why don't we just give you a second to introduce yourself to our listeners?

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Sure. So hi, I'm Dr. Julia Basso. I'm an assistant professor in the Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise, and the director of the Embodied Brain Lab, and also the co-director of the science and art of movement lab. I'm a neuroscientist by training and also a dancer. So I've been dancing ever since the young age of three. And in my profession, I just integrate the two worlds of movement and neuroscience to study the effects of these mind-body movement practices on the brain. That's so interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Uh, the art and science, let's talk about that for a second. The um I love on your website it says at the intersection of art and science. That's right. So, where does that come from? What is what is that what does that stimulate in your brain?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, so you know, we hold science and art as equally important. And in the lab, we study the science and the neuroscience of movement practices, but we also we do that from a scientific perspective and we also do that from an artistic perspective. And so we've done a lot of performances in the lab. My lab is a dance floor, a sprung dance floor outfitted with a neuroscience suite. That sounds like heaven. Yeah. So we're in the we're in the Center for the Arts at Virginia Tech. And, you know, we've done performances in there, um, specifically one, the Epiphany Machine, which I did with Professor Scotty Hardwig, who's a dancer and choreographer and media artist. And what we did there was we recorded the brains of the two dancers. That would be Scotty, Scotty and I performed this piece while we were interacting and dancing in a variety of ways. And we actually live streamed our brain activity. We worked with another artist, Zachary Dewar, Professor Zachary Dewar. And he took the data, the streaming data, and created it into art pieces that were projected behind us. So it kind of was like a science coming to life in the moment. We were dancing together. And then the idea would be that it was there was scientific output to it. We were actually recording the data. So we're we're writing that up in manuscript form and what were the findings from that, but also that it was scientific outreach. So we're very interested in, you know, bringing science to the public and how we can inform people about the brain and about the moving brain in particular.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Wow, what a beautiful way to like tell the story of the brain, right? Through movement. Um, I and I think we're gonna end up talking about some of your findings in terms of inter uh movement and interaction and and how how movement stimulates uh the brain in certain ways. Um, but before we do that, I guess you just gave us the definition of what your embodied brain laboratory is. Uh, how did you come up with the embodied brain?

SPEAKER_00 7:44

Yeah, I was so I've been uh dancing again, right, since I since I was very young, but I majored, I double majored in dance and neuroscience in college. And I've been practicing something called the performance of improvisation for over 20 years now. And so I have a very uh special group called the Architects, and they have hosted um Michi, uh the movement intensive and compositional improvisation for many, many years now. So I would go every year, it'd be like this this journey of the soul every year in the summer around my birthday. And um yeah, I I thought about it on the dance floor actually. I was we were improvising, um, and I am really obsessed with embodiment and kind of like very interested in the opposite of that, which would be disembodiment or disassociation. And so, you know, how can we create this embodied self, really cultivating states where the mind and body are very integrated? Um, and yeah, I that's just for me, I feel the most embodied on the dance floor. And then I just came up with that, the embodied brain lab.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Oh, uh we're gonna start diving into neurodivergence, but I do actually want to cycle back for one second. Um, you know, as uh a Pilates teacher, a lot of what we focus on is the mind-body elements of movement and in the Pilates environment and and the value of having an embodied experience and the value of awareness, the value of being present in the moment. And and I I think so much of what we're about to talk about will will be able to also come full circle. So, for listeners out there, listen carefully because I I think this is so going to be so important and practical to everyday practice. Um, so again, I want to thank you for being here. Um, let me just ask you, like flat out. So the first time I saw um the phrase neurodivergent, I could tell you exactly where I was. I was actually teaching, I was in um um Edmonton, Canada. I was getting out to get of my car to get a cup of coffee, and I saw on um somebody's you know bumper, it just said, you know, parent of a neurodivergent child, like proud parent of a neurodivergent child. And it was the first time I saw it. And and and I I had to sort of step back and be like, okay, well, what does that term, what does that term mean? What does it mean to me? What is like what is what is that saying? Um, so what what what does it mean if if somebody were to walk up to you and say, I got like, I don't know, I don't understand, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

So I'm a behavioral neuroscientist by training. So I I really believe that all of our behaviors occur on a spectrum. And often, I mean, when we think about curves, when we think about normalization, a lot of these mental health issues, they tend to be right on the on the spectrum, like the outside, this 5% right of the spectrum. When we think about neurodivergence, this it traditionally refers to developmental differences. Um, some of these things could be like, for example, autism spectrum disorder, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Sometimes they co-occur in something called ODHD, AUDHD, um, things like Tourette's syndrome, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia. So basically differences in the way that the brain may develop. Um, and so that is kind of the umbrella term, this neurodivergence for differences in neural structure and circuitry, and then the behavioral results that may come out of that.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

So uh you mentioned you've been dancing from an early age. Um uh, and and from what I understand, you come from a family of doctors and scientists. Uh, what led you into neuroscience as a field?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Yeah, so you know, I've always been interested in the brain. Initially, I wanted to be a virologist. I was very interested in viruses and um kind of wanted to be in the CDC, work, work in the CDC. But when I was coming up in college, neuroscience, well, it was actually the first year I was there was the year that they were f forming the neuroscience major. It previously was kind of a psychology biology double major. People would come together and do this thing, but but neuroscience was like brand new. So I said, Oh, this is very important. Very hard to imagine, like it was just sort of emerging as a field. Yeah, yeah. I mean, really, you know, kind of in the 1960s, the Society for Neuroscience formed. And so it's a pretty, it's relatively new kind of scientific field. And then only what? I I was in college uh starting in 2001. And so, you know, at Middlebury College up in Vermont, and I loved psychology. My dad was always turning me on to Oliver Sachs, and I was just reading books about like, yeah, you know, and he he was an excellent diagnostician. And so he he was always telling me just about these kind of unique things that would happen in the brain and just clinically, and so I was always reading these kinds of things and different books and clinical stories, and then, you know, so I was fascinated by psychology, and then all of a sudden, okay, there was this opportunity to study the brain and get involved in neuroscience, and I did. And also, I'll tell you this much we we were there at Middlebury and I was on the dance floor and I was learning about things like proprioception and interoception on the dance floor. I mean, uh, Professor Andrea Olsen would be there guiding us in movement practices with our eyes closed, talking about proprioceptors, you know, Meisner's corpuscles, uh, you know, all these different kinds of things. And so that's where I was really learning these things is on the dance floor as well.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

That's great. Just even saying it, I'm like, what actually a great way to teach some of the some of the scientific concepts that are so hard for people when they're sitting and just looking at a book and memorizing, but to actually like experience it and feel it and then hear the terminology. I would imagine that was like a like a really rich way to learn. Oh, yeah, definitely. So when we started this conversation on on what is neurodivergence, you mentioned the similarities between ADHD and autism.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

Um, tell me more. Yeah. So there are some overlapping um things that might occur. For example, uh, there's a thing called executive function or executive dysfunction, where there might be issues with thinking and attention and um, you know, trouble concentrating, um, maybe trouble uh thinking about future consequences, impulsivity, things like that. So there might be some overlaps there. Um there also could be overlaps with uh mood differences, you know, maybe depression and anxiety, these things often co-occur. With autism, you have more of uh kind of differences or challenges sometimes with social capacities, um, social communication, language, um, you know, even things like looking each other in the eye, right? And and actually some of our newer work is showing that even when you sit down and look somebody in the eye, there are a lot of changes that are happening in the brain. We do this because then all of a sudden we get people to move together in kind of this dyadic interaction. And then, you know, I wanted to compare, okay, what's the difference doing that versus kind of eye gazing? So yeah, so you know, the social piece is really important in autism. Um, and then in ADHD, it's kind of you know, this this focus on attention and impulsivity and trouble concentrating and thinking.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

But there are some similarities there as well in terms of being able to connect and look people in the eye. 100% responsiveness to body language.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Yes, exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:41

Um looking people in the eye. Do you think that that what that's like an in intimacy or a connection? Like uh uh that's just so interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Yeah. So what we're finding is that a large majority of that, the brain changes that happen uh are when all of a sudden you come into eye contact with with another person. And you know, all of this work, and and we can talk about this in a little bit, but with with dance, we a lot of this stuff comes from the neurodevelopmental literature. And so when we get individuals interacting in these ways, it's all from, you know, when we started with uh kind of mother-child interactions, looking each other in the eye, um, something like mother ease, vocalizing similarly, making facial gestures that are similar, and essentially what's called mirroring. So we're very interested in in kind of inducing mirroring now as adults and and how that might have an impact on the brain.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

Gosh, that's fascinating. I wish I could go back to college and change my major. Um, okay, uh, so under the neurodivergent umbrella, what else, what else would you say fits in there?

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Um, yeah, so I, you know, things like Tourette syndrome, um dyslexia, um, dyslexia, dyspraxia, and dyscalculia. So these these are things where you may have um, like for example, dyslexia, trouble with words and reading, uh, dyscalculia, trouble with numbers, um, and then uh dyspraxia or also uh movement coordination disorder, basically trouble with movement and um kind of the ability to coordinate. Um, there might be some issues with uh fidgeting or stumbling or you know, having trouble coordinating the body.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

Yeah. Uh uh so so that's a that's a there's a lot there, right? And they're they're they're sort of many of them are unique in their own lanes, but I would imagine there's a lot of overlap between some of them as well. Um I love the languaging here. Um so if we're talking about neurodivergent, then then uh we would say neurotypical, right, is is sort of the language around the the larger population. Or how would you how would you define neurotypical? Let's let's go there.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, these terms are again, like I'm very it's really hard for language to capture everything we're talking about. Right. And considering that behavior does occur on a spectrum. So, right, we all have our abilities and our capabilities. And we were just talking earlier about this attention span, right? And especially with people being on social media, scrolling, the attention span is getting quite limited. And so, you know, we all have our differences there and our ability to attend to something. Um, and you know, so when we're talking about neurodivergence, of course, when um and my daughter has ADHD, and so we went through the whole process of getting the diagnosis and the you know, almost a year-long process of going and getting the testing and all of that. So, you know, if you the the idea really is if you're um making check marks or check boxes on a particular number of symptoms, then you get uh kind of categorized or diagnosed with ADHD or autism, as it were. And um, you know, so again, it's it's this spectrum. Um, from a clinical perspective, I think, you know, there are a number of boxes you you tick and then you get diagnosed. Um, and that's how it works. But in reality, when we think about behavior, everybody is on this spectrum.

SPEAKER_01 19:18

Right. Uh so that so that's kind of a question is we talk about spectrum, but then there's like, you know, we talk about the autism spectrum, but there is a there's a neurotypical spectrum. There's a right like everybody and a lot of these behaviors are part of our our who we are as humans. Exactly. Is it is it when they start to show up in sort of excessive versions of themselves?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah. And I think, you know, in certain instances, right, the teacher is bringing to the parent, oh, the child's not sitting still in class, oh, they're not attending to this, oh, they're talking too much to their friends in class, you know, whatever it might be. So sometimes the information is coming from external input, you know, which you know, which is what happened to us. And yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

So I know you you took off boxes, but this is just uh, as you're talking, just a curiosity that I have is like, is like at what point does some of that behavior go from typical to neurodivergent? Yeah, you know, especially with ADHD. You know, like I'm I yeah, I have two children. They, you know, uh at any give there are multiple times when I, you know, and you know, everybody says, oh my god, they must be ADHD. Right. Everybody just thinks that that lack of attention span equals ADHD. Like, yeah, and I don't mean clinically, but at what point do we see that we move from sort of neurotypical to that neurodivergent? Oh, we're gonna tick that boss.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah, I mean, really, right? Because somebody could not go and get diagnosed. And so I I I imagine it's a matter of like if those issues are causing you enough concern in your home life, in your school life, in your work life. Um, you know, and then I know medications for certain uh like stimulant medications, right, really help. And I have a lot of students that I mentor who do have ADHD and who report, yeah, well, when I started taking stimulant medication, this really helped my school performance and um things like that. So in the lab, we're very interested. And one of my recent uh PhD students, Dr. Nortaznim, he studied and he did his thesis research on using movement for individuals with ADHD. Because if you think about, okay, so say, let's say Adderall or Vivance is prescribed for someone with ADHD, and these are stimulant medications that work on our dopaminergic uh and other neurotransmitter systems. Well, guess what? Exercise, physical activity is doing the same thing. And, you know, one of the best things that exercise does is an improve what executive function. And that's exactly what these medications are. Doing to increase the executive function of these individuals. And so we said, hey, can we get these same changes acutely with exercise? And the answer is yes. Yeah. You know, and so we're very interested in, hey, you know, if we can use some of these uh kind of natural processes to change the brain in similar ways, then can it be helpful?

SPEAKER_01 22:20

So that's that's hugely fascinating. So I I would say about, I don't know, maybe six years ago, I did some research on mindful movement. And um uh what I found was a lot of the research that was coming, uh coming back at me, uh, you know, the benefits of mindful movement uh and aging was actually the topic. And a lot of the benefits that were that were shooting out at me as as current research had an awful lot to do with what you're talking about. It talked about ADHD and sleep quality and attend, you know, just general student attention span. It talked about uh depressive disorders, it talked about cognitive functioning for the aging. So um have have you been working on like, okay, so how do we how do we dose it? How do we dose exercise to to to be maybe in conjunction with medication or in place of medication? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

So, you know, one of the questions we've been asking is what kind of exercise is the best? Yes You know, we're very curious about that. Um, aerobic exercise is what's been traditionally studied in the literature. And we're kind of curious, okay, you know, keeping aerobic capacity the same or keeping that aerobic challenge the same, what happens when you induce complexity into the movement? And so, you know, we've gotten people dancing versus cycling or running. Right. And we find that the more complex the movement, the more the body, I guess the more the mind is challenged to kind of integrate these physical activities and coordinative movements, the better it is for executive function. And it's very fascinating because, you know, traditionally it's been thought, okay, how how much can we tax the cardiopulmonary system? And is that going to have the strongest benefits? Or scientists have been asking, how quickly can the workout be, you know, with HIT being a popular, the high-intensity interval training, you know, can it be a short workout? And so what we're really finding is that the complexity of the movement might be a variable that people haven't been thinking about. And so, you know, it helps to reorganize neural networks that promote cognitive function.

SPEAKER_01 24:39

So when we talk about dance and aerobics, uh, there's other factors in there too. There's music. Yeah. Um, it's whether or not it's a solo activity versus a group activity. Uh, so interaction plays a part in that. Uh, have you looked at this in in more solo practices like yoga and Pilates and even strength training?

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Yeah. So the study I am talking about was in a solo practice for sure. Um, so that, yeah, these benefits can come on board with the solo practice. Now, what a group practice is doing, and we're very interested in this, is dyadic movement practices, is something called interbrain synchrony. And considering that we see some of these social differences in ADHD and autism, and we're trying to understand, and even in things like depression, for example, where there's a heavy internal focus, you know, and kind of a non-interest in being social. Can we use these dyadic movement practices to get individuals to externalize and connect with others? And what we're finding there is, yeah, that it does, and that induces what is called interbrain synchrony or neural synchrony between two individuals. You essentially can get people by moving together, mirroring, and interacting in these movement practices, you can get their neural signatures of their neural energies in alignment with each other. And this is what is thought to promote the social connection. And we know from these studies that have been done on dance that social connection is one of the biggest outputs from these things, that you feel socially connected to others. And of course, I mean, we know that from our middle school and high school dances, from you know, our first dance as a married couple. What do you do to kind of connect with others is is move together. You get your rhythms in sync physically, you're actually getting your neural rhythms in sync as well.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Oh God, that is so fascinating. So, so we're talking about um, and and there's a lot of overlap here, two things. One is is sort of engaging in complexity of movement. Um, and then the other is is synchrony, two, you know, two or more people moving um in synchrony together. And I I think it's so interesting because you, as you're talking, right, so much of the science is pouring out. But there's sort of the this just this like um lovely experience. If you're ever in a room, uh a room of people who are moving together, there is this energy that that comes from that. And that you know, you see it externally, but what you're saying is it's also happening neurologically. That's right. Yeah. Um I'm fascinated. What what kind of research, like when you like research methods do you use?

SPEAKER_00 27:19

Yeah. So what we do is we conduct something called hyperscanning electroencephalography or EEG. So, and we we do this in the moving brain. Um, a lot of these studies in the past have been done b because of the kind of limitations of technology in a functional magnetic resonance image and scanner where you have to be lying down, you have to be still. What do they do? Yeah, or they've um they've either, you know, they'll either take pictures of the brain of, say, really experienced professional dancers, that that's one technique, or they'll show videos of dancers, you know, videos of the moving body, right? And then see how the brain reacts. And so, yeah, there's there's something called the action observation network, um, the these kind of groupings of brain areas that activate when we see somebody moving. And say, for example, you know, Ballerina who knows Swan Lake, for example, and sees Swan Lake happening, his or her brain is gonna be very much more lit up if you were um than somebody who doesn't know those movements, the action observation network. Interesting. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:23

So I I I thought you were gonna say that the that I mean, that just by watching can light up the brain, which I'm sure it does. But if you're a ballerina and you're watching someone performing, you're it's almost like your brain is mapping it in a way. Oh interesting.

SPEAKER_00 28:37

Yeah, it's like the the embodied brain. The you know, how the how the brain knows that what that person is experiencing, you can kind of feel that within yourself. It's almost like a moving empathy. Yes, yeah, yeah, kinesthetic empathy. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Um, okay, so I I interrupted you. So um, so that's one one way of doing that. But that's then one person being still observing movement.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

Right. So that's that's been kind of the holdup with the science there. So what we try to do, we do something called mobile electroencephalography. So you get on a little backpack and you get your cap on, and we have all these electrodes all over the space.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

If somebody wants to know what that looks like, they could check out your website.

SPEAKER_00 29:18

Yeah. Um, and so you put on a little cap, it has electrodes all over, and then you move and you interact. And what we do is we hyperscan the two individuals. Um, we've done this with with uh, I guess up to groups of four. We also have projects in stone carving and other artistic practices, but we make sure that the signals are aligned so we know that we're recording um kind of the same neural signals at the same moment in time. And then we look at basically the correlations between those two things while people are interacting, while they're you know participating in eye gaze or movement mirroring or movement improvisation with the mothers and children. We've done cuddling and conversations and and different kinds of ways mothers and children interact, like play.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

And and I you've started to talk about this, but what are what have been the findings?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Yeah, so let's see, findings. So, first off, you know, with the interbrain synchrony, which we're kind of very most excited about, um, we do something called movement mirroring. And this is a practice that's kind of out of the dance movement therapy space. Um, and so essentially when you get when you move, um, the task in hand would be, you know, if I were to move, I would ask you to move with me or follow my movements as precisely as you can, including gesturing and facial expression and all of that. So basically attuning or attending to the other person as specifically as possible and moving with them. And so we're finding that the more coordinated that the movements are, kind of at the physical level, then the more coordinated you can get your brain activity, which is really cool. And I mean, it's it's mirroring essentially what we find in the neurodevelopmental literature. Um, when you have, let's say, mom and child, that's where most of the literature has been done. And I'm sure you've heard of those studies where like the baby responds and then the mom is completely not responsive. Uh-huh. Um, or you know, the baby responds and mom is like immediately responsive, both not only in timing, but in the movement, the movement portion, exactly following what the baby is doing, but also the timing of it, right? And so then we're finding that in in the adult movement space. So the more that you can mimic another being, then the more your neural oscillations are coordinating. And you know that I mean when we're in conversation, you're smiling, I'm smiling, similar hand gestures. That's why we do that. So that we can get some. That's you, that's too. Yeah, that's uh keep going. I'm sorry. Yeah, no, no, no. So yeah, I mean, I and well, that's interesting you bring that up, right? Because maybe people from different cultures are are coming together in their movement patterns and forms and expressions. So probably comes around, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Yeah. Um, so so you're also a yoga instructor. Yeah. Do I have that right? That's right. So so how how do you think this applies now to practices like yoga and Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, bringing it into the movement classroom, I think it's very exciting. I mean, these are, I teach this class called Moving Body, Moving Mind at Virginia Tech. Um, and it's, you know, it's these are the practices I'm bringing into class. So what we'll do is I'll teach them about neural synchrony and interbrain synchrony, and then we'll do these movement practices. And so, you know, I think in the movement space, if if the teachers can kind of get people coordinating, get them interacting, um, moving together, which is uh just a natural thing, right? That happens in in yoga and Pilates and dance, um, that we kind of are naturally bringing the neural oscillations together, not only between two people, but between the whole group. And I think that's often why, like, you know, when you're in these classes sometimes, you often feel connected with the other people in the room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

You know, you know, uh, there's been um this this this real rise of um Pilates classes. These last, you know, it's I think Pilates is going through a lot of what yoga went through, I don't know, maybe 10, 15 years ago. Um and and I I think there's really great val I've always thought there's really great value in these classes. There's complexity of movement, and then there's this this synchrony, right, that you're you're looking for in the class environment. So I think so much of what you're saying is is just really so lovely and valuable and affirming um on a lot of levels. But let's let's take it back to neurodivergent individuals. How how does like how do you now take these practices and and apply them to neurodivergent individuals?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

I mean, I think all of these things then apply to even if there's classes that could be designed for for neurodivergent individuals, um, it's it's the same the same things, right, are are going on here. And that um certainly, I mean, we've taught classes for neurodivergent individuals where right, there's more um of planning and preparation. We might even have a board where we say, okay, these are the things we're going to do. Um, we will have a physical board and you know, okay, now we're here, now we're here. So there's a little bit more of um an order and operation to the thing where they, you know, kind of know what's coming, that there's introductions to the exercises. And that, I mean, in the studies that we've done, there's a pre-experiencing of some of the things, even like, for example, um making sure people get to touch and feel and experience the EEG caps and things like this. Right, right. And so I think that, yeah, if we're thinking about how to cultivate these states uh for the brain and for the neurodivergent brain, you know, I think that these movement classes that can enhance social connection, both at the level of behavior and the brain, will be integral to helping with that social connection piece. And, you know, I think it's the nonverbal communication, which we often get to experience in these classes, they then bleed into your experience to be social in a verbal way later on.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

Pilates Perspectives is brought to you by Balanced Body. If you teach Pilates, you know that quality education and equipment are essential for a great class. Balanced Body partners with practitioners around the world as they invest in teacher training and equipment. Our apparatus is designed with instructors to ensure we include everything you need. Our industry leading warrantees ensure our apparatus withstands years of daily use. Get $20 off your equipment order of $100 or more by visiting Pilates.com slash podcast dash discount and follow the prompts. Oh, you know, in our first couple of seasons, we talked a lot about community building. Um, and a lot of what what you're saying like sounds to me like the perfect way to set up all classes in in so many ways, right? To have some pre-work and to to set the stage and to give people like an understanding of what they're about to experience and to bring them in on that conversation and to make it collaborative with, you know. Um uh I mean I I sort of see a really lovely way to address or to walk into any classroom environment, really.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I also I like the idea of, you know, like everybody has a unique movement signature.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

And so to kind of uh like one of I love that a movement signature. Yeah, like one of the exercises I'll always do like one the first first second day of class to do an introduction after after we do kind of the verbal introduction, I'll we do our name game, you know, and so we say, you know, Julia, and then I do a movement that represents me. And then we go around the circle doing that, and then we eventually take names away and it just becomes an entire choreographed dance, yeah. Right. And so, you know, getting kind of uh people's movement, uh, I don't know, senses of self about that. You know, yes, it's yeah, it that's really important too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

Um mirror neurons.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

What are they?

unknown 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

So let's see. Well, you know, those studies were done in the mirror neuron system. It is, it's that like the action observation system in humans. So the mirror neuron system is something that was studied in uh macaques, right? In uh non-human primates. And so these were neurons that were recorded, whereby when the monkeys would see somebody else doing a task, reaching for an object, those neurons would fire in the same way. They would mirror what was actually going on in another monkey. And so monkey see, monkey do. Exactly, exactly. And so then in humans, this is these these ballet studies I was talking about, where you have individuals watching actions, you know, and the body body knows these actions and you can actually see the brain lighting up as if it were moving itself. And so, you know, some of these brain areas are like in the the uh pre-modor cortex and areas that in the parietal cortex that represent the body and represent motion and action and integrate all of that incoming information. But what an important part of learning.

SPEAKER_01 38:39

Oh, yes, right, you know, because you you you see your brain is preparing and then you're doing, right? Exactly. Yeah. Um, and do you find that that that mirroring in um and again neurodivergence is very wide, but in in some neurodivergent individuals, do you find that that mirroring is is lacking or or is in some way in need of, you know, more training?

SPEAKER_00 39:05

Well, you know, I think in in no matter what, people can mirror and people do that. And um, and so I think it's something that it's a technique that can be built no matter who you are. I mean, we we train for this in dance. Um, and so I'm you know, it's a practice that like I with my dance partners we do often. And we do it to to see whether we can track uh another human and their movements and expand our movement vocabulary. So it's kind of a way to just, you know, you can really try on another person's movements as we say it. And what I'm most interested in is that, I mean, it again, this is from the neurodevelopmental space. This is what we do when we're children. We we take on um our others' actions and others' motions. And so we see what it feels like to be them.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

Gosh, and it and it it's it happens so organically, doesn't it? Especially as you're as you're children. Um, what discoveries about the body-brain link were you not expecting to find or that surprised you?

SPEAKER_00 40:09

Yeah, so you know, I think one of the most exciting findings is about this coordinative piece and that the more that we can coordinate our actions, the more we can actually drive neural synchrony. I'm super, super excited about this. Where it's just in the process of being published, but it's, you know, it's it's kind of a new and exciting finding. I mean, we know this from the clinical space and and again in dance movement therapy spaces, that's what they're they're trying to induce that kind of movement synchrony to induce states of empathy and um social changes. And so to really see that that is working and that, you know, the more we can coordinate with another human being, then the more we can drive neural synchrony is is kind of the most exciting and surprising thing. And also the fact that those kind of correlations or representations between the two brains happen in what's called um amplitude synchrony. So it's essentially the more kind of energy that the brain is producing, the more uh neurons are kind of coming into action or firing in a particular way. That that is what's happening. So basically, neural synchrony is more neurons firing in each person's brain and you can induce them at the same time. And you can induce that through these movement practices.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Um, what about uh we talked about someone who is a dancer watching a dancer, but what about like you're attending and you're watching Swan Lake and you're in the audience or you're at a play and you're having sort of a um an emotional or like like you know when something on stage is landing in an audience. Um what kind of studies have you done on on you know that kind of a relationship? And does it does it have similar effects?

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah. So this is also something I'm very interested in is is kind of the the audience participation and what happens there, you know? And so we have plans for the future to do this kind of thing. Um, what we have done is we've recorded the brain during art installation and looking, having looking at these viewers that are looking at art, um, thinking about art, and then discussing art afterwards. And what we're finding is that the brain starts to oscillate in their the faster oscillations, basically. So they become more attentive and concentrated. Um, brain states called beta and gamma start to come on board. And these are kind of higher order levels of ways that the brain processes information. And not only does that happen while you're viewing art, but it happens in the conversation after. And you know, when you but that's synchrony again. Exactly, exactly. And so that kind of emotional cognitive processing of the thing after you experience the art viewing, we find to be very important and that the these brain states stay during that time period. There's like that that resonance of what's happening in the brain. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 43:18

Well, what about now in like in conversation, in in um uh teacher-student interactions? Uh the you I mean, you know when your class is with you and they're, you know, and they're they're they're coordinating um not only movements, but words and feelings and gesture into what they're producing, and it doesn't matter what the class really is. Um what kinds of have you done studies on on that, on conversation or on like teacher student relationships?

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Yeah, so one of the beyond the mother child literature, the other um big area of research is teachers and student interactions. Um, Suzanne Dicker and her team at NYU have been very Involved in that space. And so, yes, it really does drive neural synchrony. Um, this attending to another, the learning uh experience. And we've we've done some work with that as well, recording the brains of teachers and participants as they move together. And that's actually, I've been talking about this mirroring work, but that that was done in the teacher-student uh interaction in that space.

SPEAKER_01 44:22

I mean, I uh it we talk so much about um, you know, in in in teaching of teachers, we we spend so much time teaching them to teach the thing, uh-huh, right? But this now uh amplifies this to really teaching the human um and finding ways of engagement. Uh and then I think that that translates beautifully into then also uh is if you're talking about neurodivergent individuals, meeting stimulating and meeting where you where you can find that resonance. I think I mean this opens up a whole other field of teaching the teacher. Right. Exactly. Um are you are are you guys moving in that direction or is that part of is that part of what you do?

SPEAKER_00 45:10

Or yeah, I mean, I certainly think the research has implications for that. Um, I mean, there's this whole interesting line of research talking about communication for the neurodivergent brain, and that actually when you see communication between two neurodivergent individuals versus neurodivergent and neurotypical, that there's actually it's a communication mismatch essentially. And it's not that they have social deficits, it's that there's social differences. And so we're very specific in using that language, um, differences, right? It's it's not a deficit mindset. And so we're we're actually we have this new study coming up that one of my fantastic undergraduates, Ryan Frank, is doing, where we are working with VisMoo, which is um a company that that has this game called Mirror Me. And so it's actually a movement mirroring game in a virtual reality space. And so our this is I was gonna ask you about virtual reality.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Yeah, so it's our next upcoming study we're running this fall, whereby we're going to look at the impacts of mirroring in in real life in response to mirroring in this virtual environment, in this virtual reality setting, and how that might impact um, you know, individuals with neuro neurodivergence.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Wow, I think I mean um that has tremendous, tremendous implications going forward, especially with um virtual reality really um becoming front and center. That's that is very exciting. Yeah, it's very exciting. Um any anything preliminarily that that you're you know, or any hypothesis that you're working with?

SPEAKER_00 46:46

Yeah, well, you know, we're we're seeing if we can use this to actually drive interbrain synchrony and look at if, you know, a virtual reality kind of social movement experience can actually help to um increase that behavioral synchrony that we know is driving the neural synchrony.

SPEAKER_01 47:04

Um let's let's talk a little bit about nonverbal and verbal communication. Um, how does a nonverbal practice like dance um help with like with verbal communication?

SPEAKER_00 47:18

So I think these nonverbal interactions, right? They're they're of course our precursor to language. That's how we we develop, right? Before we're talking to our parents, we're mimicking their actions and their facial expressions and tones and gestures.

SPEAKER_01 47:33

And so I'm giving so many fantastic flashbacks of my kids now. You know, you know, the first time they stuck their tongue out when you stuck your tongue out or when they open their mouth and you open your. Yeah, sorry, sorry. I know it's so sweet. I'm having a moment.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

But uh yes, okay, so nonverbal and that's yeah, our first cues. Right. It's like the bedrock of language. And actually, you know, when you think kind of evolutionarily about music and dance, it's evolutionarily these practices led up to our ability to communicate verbally with one another. They were our first ways to communicate. Well, you know, in groups, if you had people moving together, moving similarly, right? They're kind of communicating that you're doing something together, that you're interacting, that you're kind of sharing a common goal. And so these it's like our bedrock for language. So it's important, you know, even if we practice this in our adolescent and adult lives, it will just help to kind of enhance the social communication structure. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

And we're talking about this in movement, but I would imagine this is also the same if you're um playing music together.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Mm-hmm. Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Exactly. Yeah. Uh okay. So here's a question for you. Everybody talks about neuroplasticity, and again, I think it's become so trendy and it means so many different things to so many different people. Uh, how would you describe neuroplasticity?

SPEAKER_00 48:52

So I think when people think about neuroplasticity, right, it generally means changes in the brain. Um, what are those changes? So when you think about exercise, and it's one of the best things we can do for neuroplasticity, one of the prominent findings is neurogenesis, which is the birth and growth of new neurons. Fine. And that primarily happens in the hippocampus and the dentatyrus of the hippocampus, which is our seat for learning and memory. But those new neurons, right, they are larger. They have more dendritic branching. So the dendrites are kind of this entry point for the neuron. If you can think of a tree, like the extensions, the branches of the tree, they have more synapses, something called synaptogenesis. Um, the synapses are more dense. So these neurons are better able at communicating with other neurons. Um, the their the long-term potentiation or the ability for these neurons to kind of respond is lower. So they they take in information and respond. Take information and respond. These um they also embed themselves in the circuits, which is important. Um, not only that, but there's something called angiogenesis and vasculogenesis. So that's the um birth and growth of the vascular system, the blood-brain barrier, and that there's more flexibility in the this vasculature. So more uh flow between the blood and all of the neurons.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

And is it correlated that the the the you know, sort of the more dense uh the synapses and the more dendrites and the more ability for uh neurologically to take in and respond to information also leads to more flexibility, arterial flexibility. And like, are those things directly correlated?

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Yes, yeah, exactly. Yeah, there's these trisynaptic circuits with the what's called you know, gliogenesis. So um things like astrocytes and all these support neurons, support cells that support the neurons themselves are are more and more diverse. Um, not only that, right, but there's there's brain-derived neurotrophic factors and all these growth factors that are like the um kind of they help to support all of that growth, the fertilizer of the brain, if you will. Um and there's more kind of the the neurons are producing more neurotransmitters and more neuromodulators. I mean, so it's not just one thing, it's like a whole system of space. It's a casting. Yeah. And one of the things that I love about exercise is that, yes, it causes neuroplastasy in all these different ways, but it's very different than, say, taking a pill, right? Because you have this whole systemic thing that's happening. You know, it's happening at the level of the musculature, in the body, um, the cells, the individual cells. Exactly. The the muscles themselves are are producing uh just kind of different precursors that some do cross the blood-brain barrier and cause uh you know neurotrophic factors and other kinds of factors to produce in the brain. Um, so it's you know, you're not you're not taking a pill to do this kind of thing. It's you know, it's pretty fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

So um, you know, exercise in the in the literature, um there are times, of course, in which they're studying yoga or Pilates or dance or and and and um it's very specific. But in the literature, uh exercise is still being used quite generically. Um uh and you you alluded to earlier that that that primarily the conversation is around aerobic exercise. Right. Um, unless otherwise specified. Um is that is that still the case or or you know, or so or what you're talking about, can you find that in more complex movement patterns and exercises such as yoga, Pilates, or are is this or most studies truly about aerobic and aerobic uh environments?

SPEAKER_00 52:54

Yeah, I probably I think if we looked at the literature, maybe 85-90% of the studies out there are going to be about aerobic exercise. But people are really starting, I think, to be interested in dance as an intervention because it's it's multifaceted, right? It's not only about that cardiopulmonary fitness, but that also makes it hard to study in a way because it's so multifaceted that is the same thing with Pilates and yoga, right? Exactly. And you have this mind-body component, you're really focusing on breath and mindfulness, and there's a socio-emotional piece to it. So it does make it complicated. And there have been a small subset of studies that have looked at um strength training, you know, weightlifting and so forth. Uh, but yeah, it's just, you know, it's well, unfortunately, right? The the NIH is they're not studying exercise um kind of very specifically, right? There's not a lot of funding for it. Right. Um, and so not a lot of focus on it. So yeah, I think it's a burgeoning field, and uh, we're just starting to get in into the weeds of it.

SPEAKER_01 53:59

So you mentioned um uh can staying with the exercise um conversation, you mentioned earlier about uh dopamine and serotonin and neuropinephrine. Like, can you talk about these neurotransmitters and and how they are stimulated through exercise?

SPEAKER_00 54:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

Or dan's uh however you want to talk about them.

SPEAKER_00 54:21

Yeah. So, you know, most of the literature has come from the animal, the animal literature. Um, and what we found is that yeah, there's all kinds of increases in things like dopamine and neuroepinephrine and serotonin. And those three primary neurotransmitters, you know, dopamine is involved in reward and motivation circuits. Um, neuropinephrine is more like our attentional activating system, and serotonin uh deals with mood and emotional regulation. Um, so of course, all of those three things are very important. And we know that as a correlative, that exercise improves our mood and exercise increases our intention and makes us, you know, activated and awake. Um, and then some of the newer literature has been showing that exercise increases our endocannabinoids. So those are like our natural uh THC system. And the I was gonna say, wait a minute, isn't there isn't don't you get that at a dispenser? Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So um, you know, and that and they are thinking now that it, you know, the um the endogenous opioids, right? Or the uh endorphins was kind of the big story on on exercise for a while, that that's that's what kind of boosts the um runner's high and that kind of thing. That was you know thought to be, and that is true. You know, exercise does boost our endogenous opioid system, um, but it also does the endocannabinoids. And and the most recent thinking is that the endocannabinoids actually promote the motivational sense of exercise. You know, the more and our our research has found that the more you exercise, the more you want to exercise. You know, people always ask me, how can I get motivated to exercise? And I'm like exercise. It seems like a simple thing to say, but yeah, it's it's a simple story, but but then the brain gets used to experiencing, you know, oh yeah, I win that run. And then it craves it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's actually what what my uh PhD thesis work was on is the motivation for physical activity and kind of understanding the neural substrates that underlie this. And now we're doing uh more work in the lab along with my um husband, Dr. Daniel English and his lab, and looking at kind of the um neural correlates of exercise motivation and what gets you to want or crave that exercise. And actually, the story is that it's actually happening in our sleep too. And really, yeah. So it's as you recover, is it something? Yeah, like so. The more that you exercise, the the brain, you know, of course, sleep is super important. And when you go to sleep, there's something that happens called replay. And the brain actually consolidates all these memories in kind of this faster way, you know, the neurons fire again, but in a faster consolidated way. And there are these things called sharp wave ripples, which are, you know, our fastest neural oscillation there is. And the more you basically the more you exercise, the more you're driving these sharp wave ripples, which end up then, you know, getting you motivated to exercise. So yeah, it's a whole it's a whole thing that's happening in our neural circuits.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

That's that's amazing. That is amazing. Um, so uh cycling back to neurodivergence, then in terms of neurotransmitters, uh uh how what what what is happening there that might be different?

SPEAKER_00 57:43

Well, again, right? These uh the ability of exercise to drive these neurotransmitters is super important. If you're taking uh, you know, Adderall or any of these stimulant medications, it's acting on some of these same neurotransmitter systems, dopamine in particular. And so we're thinking that if we can use exercise to help supplement that, um, that it can really just be a supportive mechanism for individuals with with ADHD or autism.

SPEAKER_01 58:11

Um uh on a podcast, you you shared a little bit about music and the role of in movement spaces. How might music affect um a neurodivergent individual? Yeah. Um and let's let's talk about it for ADHD and and for autism.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Yeah. So, you know, there's always this funny thing that happens when you're a movement teacher and then all of a sudden your your music cuts out, you know, and everybody stops dancing. Um, and so the the reason why is because you know, music has a natural, it has these rhythms. It basically has the same oscillations that the brain has. And so you can actually use music to drive the neural rhythms. Um, the the music, the information comes into our ears, right? And it gets kind of translated in our temporal lobes, and that that same rhythm then translates to the motor cortex, which is why, right, we can move to beats and rhythms. And so using music to drive movement, and sometimes we call dance uh music-induced movement. Um music-induced. Yeah, when we don't want to use the word dance um for certain reasons. And so, yeah, it's a strong driver of movement. Um, that being said, uh, as a movement teacher, I've been in spaces working with neurodivergent individuals who find um music with words or with lyrics very distracting, or that the, you know, the the music is too loud or it's too quiet or it's too distracting. So there's sensitivities, you know, that you need to be aware of. Um, but certainly I think music for you know young, young children and up, it really helps. I think it's uh the since the age of six months or so, babies can entrain to musical rhythms. And um parrots do this too. I don't know if anybody's seen those YouTube videos, you know, and there's um a wonderful researcher at Rockefeller University, Constantina The Fanoplo, who studies this and and you know says that parrots and humans are the only ones that can dance because these are the only species that can train to to rhythms of music. And so it's very crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:22

I wonder what that is, parrots and humans.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

That's such so interesting. Yeah. So um, yeah, so music has that power to drive that movement. Uh, does a type of music matter? Yeah, people are always asking me this. Uh yes, I'm sure it does. Um, and then like the studies haven't been done. And so we'll often use kind of rhythmic music without without lyrics when we're kind of doing our studies and um often in improvisational dance spaces too. Sometimes sometimes we work with the musicians who are also improvising. So it's a whole improvisational space. And so, yeah, I mean, that's a huge question. How does music affect the brain, which has been studied some. And um, one of my new PhD students, uh Susie Green, is actually working in that space, looking at the impact of musical improvisation on brain function. So we're just analyzing that data now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

Oh, I'm gonna be so interested in hearing more about that. Um, okay, so then let's let's cycle back again. Uh in in terms of um, a large part of our our audience here are Pilates instructors. What accommodations might be helpful for neurodivergent folks um in fitness classes like Pilates?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Yeah, so you know, with Pilates, I think a lot of the movements can be quite complicated. Yes, right. And so considering there are there are things like dyspraxia or the movement coordination um disorders, you know, being attuned to that information and that instructions beforehand or introducing before doing might be very important. And also, and we think about this in our studies, having a space, like having a separate space, like a sensory space, and having that allowance of, oh, you know, if you're if you're stimulated over stimulated and you want to go in that space for some quiet, absolutely. Or so a sensory space meaning like a quiet space. Yeah, like a quiet space, and maybe there are squishies and fidget toys and uh balance balls and things like that that can be in that space, you know. Um, also stops and breaks for snack and water, those kinds of reminders, like let's take a moment. Um, because often those classes can be so intense and so stimulating. And so really to take take it slow. And often if you're a movement teacher, you kind of like you you have the fitness in you, you know, you can go for that whole hour plus, but to have that reminder of, oh yeah, people, this is hard, you know, and it can be challenging and people need a break and all those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Um, this might be a really overly simplistic sort of question to ask, but you were talking about neuroplasticity and you and we were talking about um in synchrony of movement amplitude of activity in the brain. Do you do you you see in in um ADHD and or autism almost like a hyper amplitude and and like like the waves feeling more more dense? Is the brain sort of triggering and firing at a more rapid rate?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:32

Um the literature has actually shown things in both directions. So, and there's something that we're interested in called uh functional connectivity or intra-brain synchrony. And sometimes studies have shown that there might be a hyperconnectivity, that certain areas are overconnected. And in in other studies, they've shown an underconnectivity or a hypoconnectivity. And so, you know, we're finding that essentially that exercise in these physical activity practices can help induce plasticity in the system and help to regulate the system. And so, you know, I think that's that's very important. It can be a driver for change in the brain and potentially, you know, it might it might be happening in different ways for different individuals. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:18

So a regulator. So so if it's one, if it is falling on one side or the other, exercise can really sort of help to just in a regulatory function. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Um, okay. So is there anything else? Because I I think there's about a I could just continue to go on and on here. Anything else specifically that you would want listeners to know about what we've discussed today?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:46

Yeah, I mean, just kind of the the point that movement can be a really powerful practice, that it's enhancing, like we've talked about neuroplasticity in this way that helps to drive self-regulation. And if you can do it in a dyadic way, you know, if you're a mom to do it with your child, um, or even in romantic partnerships or friendships, it can help co-regulate. And co-regulation is really, really important. Um, in, you know, even if you as a person are doing it and can help use exercise to calm yourself, you can then go into other spaces and be calm. And, you know, it spreads that. I mean, we always talk about that in yoga, right? You're you're doing it for yourself, and then it lends into the family and then into the community and so on and so forth. So I love that idea, but that really is is true.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:38

Yeah. Uh uh, so I just had a uh I've had two funny visuals uh while you while you've been speaking. One is when you talked about synchrony, I thought I'm never gonna watch synchronized skating in the Olympics um the same way ever again. And and you know when synchronized skaters, when they are on. Are on, but also when like something happens and they're off, it's almost like it's like in my mind now. I'll I'll envision their brains like like glitching on each other, you know, that kind of thing. Um and the uh and the other is pickable of all things. Like so when you think about people moving in synchrony, yeah, um, what happens when competition is brought into the space?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:24

Yeah, no, that's that's such a a great question. I I mean, I always have this idea of like, you know, we've we've done some studies um on our football team at Virginia Tech, not with EEG caps, but I always have this like, you know, thought like, what if we could get them all in EEG caps and look at what's happening at the level of the team? Yeah, you know, and how much synchrony is is you know driven there and how does it relate to scoring goals and you know, all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:50

So there's a there's a there's there's a lot there. Yeah, there's a lot there. Um, all right, fantastic. Rapid fire questions, which don't worry if they're not so rapid fire. It's okay. Uh what does being fit mean to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:04

Yeah. So being fit means much more than, you know, looking good in a bikini, that's for sure. Really, you know, when I think about being fit, um, sure is at the physical level, but more so for me, is at the mental level, like feeling good, just making sure I like am happy that day and calm.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:23

Oh gosh, that's a whole other conversation to have, right? What what role that what role does sort of um um gratefulness and and calm and meditation play? But okay, we're gonna have to have you back for another time for that conversation. Okay. What is uh mis uh what is one misunderstanding about your profession that you wish more people understood?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:44

Hmm. About my profession. Yeah, I guess that when people think we're studying the brain, it's all about like being in a scanner and still. And so I'm well, personally obsessed with right, just like studying the naturalistic brain. And, you know, where I mean we're on the dance floor, we're doing studies um in a lab, quote unquote, but you know, it's really just like in our natural practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:08

Um, and one habit that you do for yourself that complements your movement practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:15

Yeah. It's really um making sure that the movement practice is consistent and that I'm mixing it up. So I'm never uh doing, you know, high-intensity interval training all throughout the week. It's yoga and it's you know, and it's rest and it's also rest. I let myself rest. Yeah. And if I'm not feeling it, then I don't do exercise that day.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:40

Um, but your but your brain probably craves it. Uh okay. Do you have one to three books or a podcast you'd recommend?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:48

Oh, let's see. Um, well, and you know, anything from Oliver Sachs is just like it's so fascinating. It's fascinating. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:55

Everyone must read.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:56

Yeah, a must read. Like and and very, very um accessible reading. Anybody could read it. Accessible reading, yeah, for sure. Um and podcasts, well, yeah, I don't listen to too many podcasts minus like some fun, you know, fun ones, but nothing, nothing uh exercise related. So yeah, and then in terms of I don't know, exercise and dance, all all the books by Andrea Olson, I just have to recommend them so much because they're like body and earth. They're just so beautiful. And there's movement uh exercises along with a very accessible science. Oh, great. Um, and so she has some new ones recently as well. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:39

So yeah, we'll have to take that into account for um our book club.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

Um, okay, so before we conclude, where can listeners find you?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

You can find us at uh www.embodiedbrainlab.com or Instagram at bodybrainlab.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:55

Fantastic. Dr. Julia Basso. Uh, I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. This was uh fantastic. Uh and I I I really believe there is so much here that's applicable to um everyone out there who is listening. Um, so grateful that you joined us today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. This is a great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

I appreciate it.