SPEAKER_02 0:10

Hello, and welcome to Pilates Perspectives. Today we have Kathy Ross Nash to discuss moving past the reformer in our personal practice. But first, let's check in. So with Kathy, we're going to be talking about some of the lesser known apparatus and how we can cultivate a deeper understanding of the Pilates method. So in our check-in, I'm going to ask you to consider maybe a lesser-known aspect of yourself. Something that you aren't known for, like a career or a defining personality trait. Something that, if asked, an acquaintance probably wouldn't know about you. And what does that aspect look like? So take a second and let's just breathe together. So we'll inhale through the mouth, and you could do it for a count of three or four. And then exhale again for a count of three or four or whatever is comfortable for you. Just take a few of those breaths. Have you let this sit on the back burner for a while? Was that a conscious choice? Or was it an unintentional one? How could you give this element of your personality, your passions, your interest a little more time or care? Maybe that looks like some quiet self-reflection amongst your very full schedule. Maybe that looks like carving out a few moments to practice an instrument or draw a picture or whatever else strikes a chord or speaks to you. In our conversation today, we'll be spending time on Pilates apparatus that are often underlooked. My challenge for you today is to spend some time with that part of yourself that might also be underlooked, either by your own eye or by others. How can we cultivate a richer understanding of who we are by focusing on the underappreciated details? Okay. So today we have Kathy Ross Nash, creator of the Red Thread Method Advanced Teacher Training Program, with a history of connecting lineage to mastery. Kathy has provided a wealth of resources to the Pilates community, including published works such as the Red Thread Series and the Little White Book Series, which include a focus on different apparatus. The second edition of the Red Thread Matt is coming soon. You can find her on her website at krn.squarespace.com or on Instagram as at red threadranch underscore krn. Let's welcome Kathy. Today we're so excited to welcome Kathy Ross Nash to Pilates Perspectives. Welcome. Thank you. So I I'm just gonna I'm just gonna say it. I woke up this morning and I'm a little jet-lagged, and I opened my eyes and I thought, okay, I have a podcast today with Katherine Seta Jones.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Okay, that's not the first time that that has happened to me.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Here's my second thought is, well, yeah. Katherine Zeta Jones applauded.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

So I hope you take that in the spirit in which it was intended to totally. So um so Kathy, my first question to you is do you prefer Kathy Rossmash, Katherine Rossmash, KRN? Like, how do people, when they sleep, I like it all.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

I really don't care. To me, you know, like Kathy's my casual Kathy. Um, you know, Katherine is when I'm feeling adult. I love casual Kathy when I'm feeling adult and sophisticated. And KRN is it's actually near and dear to me. I have a cousin that always called me KRN. Um and that kind of started the KRN genre.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Well, it's now become a personality, it's all unto itself. So I love KRN. Oh, okay, that's great. So for anybody out there, when you meet her in person, they can they can greet you in many different ways.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

You can let me know how you feel. If you're in a casual mood, you call me Kathy. There you go.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

If you're not So uh today, uh some of our conversation, we're gonna talk about some of the lesser-known apparatus uh and and and moving beyond the reformer. Yes. Um, but before we get there, you actually have stated in other interviews that the mat is the work. Yes. What does that mean? So that is where he began his work, right? It was the mat.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

And just for everybody listening, the the he would be Joseph Pilates. You know, the guy, the man, the man. The guy. The guy.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Um, you know, Uncle Joe, Mr. Pilates, whatever. See, lots of names there. We never knew what to call him.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

I guess it depends, it would depend on you know, his mood.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

His mood of the day, exactly. Um, like we said, and then maybe somebody he doesn't answer. So when you begin this work, and when Joseph Pilates began the work, it began with the Matt. And someone couldn't do something, and he would create an apparatus to help them learn the skills of the exercise.

SPEAKER_02 5:56

I think that's really worth repeating because um in the early 2000s, when Pilates really started its, I would say its first bump or its first ascendancy, there was this sort of almost rush to bypass the mat.

SPEAKER_03 6:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Um, or this rush to try to mass produce the mat without understanding that there were skills that needed to be developed. Yes. That in some ways it's the beginning, but it's also the end product. Correct. Would you agree with that? 100%. Um we find ourselves now in this world where reformer is king.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:35

And do you think that by by dumping into that sort of reformer world, we're not addressing Matt or Matt is becoming a lost art?

SPEAKER_00 6:43

So the mat in my world, the Matt and the Reformer are sisters. Your reformer supports the development of your mat, but you have to remember that the mat is still an apparatus. Tell me more about that. So the apparatus was created to facilitate the skills of the mat. It was made to help you learn how to move correctly. The bed of the reformer slides back as you push so that you learn that you're moving from your abdominals, that you're moving from your center, and the whole body is fully engaged on the mat. So you understand that there's full body engagement as you're working, that it's not just arbitrarily flicking a leg or moving an arm, that it is literally a symphony of the entire body doing every single exercise. And the reformer helps to teach that, which is, I also think, why it became such a focal point in the work. And it's sexy to sell. Yes. Reformer classes are people feel like they're getting more if they're on something.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

And it makes some things more accessible to some bodies. Uh, or it could add some interesting uh body-specific challenges. Yes. Where on the mat, you you know, it might take a while to for for clients to find out.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Well, this brings into why I developed the red thread. Yes. Because when I trained Pilates, it was very different than the Pilates of today. Okay. I grew up in a studio where you would do what you could, and then you were, when you couldn't do something or you were went to go learn something, you were brought to the apparatus so that you learned the skills of that next exercise. And every exercise was systematically built off of the exercise before. And when there was the period where you couldn't get apparatus. Yep. For instance, when Lolita was in Puerto Rico, there was no apparatus. So she only had the mat, and she had to break down the mat in all these different ways to teach it. Therefore, that alters the method somewhat, because it's not really a method then, with all the apparatus. So that methodology got lost. And then when they started making equipment, the reformer was so popular, and it is the symbiotic sister to the mat that the connection between them is so palatable that it was understandable that that became the apparatus that was next favored.

SPEAKER_02 9:25

Right. Um I I think it's so important this idea of it's a sister to the mat, because then you don't forget the mat inside of the reformer. Yes. Um and and I I hope that as generations of teachers continue to explore reformer, there is an embracing of of the mat, either through the reformer or the reformer through the mat.

SPEAKER_03 9:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Um because mat is is is not as sexy. No. And I will tell you, Joy, I do not put people on the reformer for a long time. Yeah. To me, they have to understand where their body is. They also have to have the alignment from their feet. If you don't have the alignment of your feet and you're pushing on the reformer, you are then honing alignment that you don't want to develop. So you spend a lot of time on the mat then. I spend a lot of time throughout my studio. Throughout my studio. I use all my equipment all the time.

SPEAKER_02 10:24

So the skill-based approach speaks to me. Uh Pilates. Would you say Pilates is a skill-building methodology? Oh, 100%. Uh part of what I think is the secret sauce is the building of the skills. Absolutely. And not necessarily the mastery of the end product. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 10:46

It's all you change the body by building the skills, by building the skills of the exercises. If I build my hundred and I build it correctly, I can change a body by doing that, by using all the apparatus so that one, they can lie flat, two, they can hold the weight of their legs, three, their head, well, two, their head could be up, weight of the head in the stomach, hold the weight of the legs, isolate the movement of the pump from the shoulder, incorporate the breath, build the endurance. If I have that, if I build that really well, then the next thing as I'm doing my roll-up, well, I have a little more hip extension because the legs are down. I have a little more articulation to go up, to go down, but I'm just enhancing what has already been introduced in the hundred.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Now that's a that's an art. That's uh learning how to build those skills as a teacher is an is is it like the art of teaching, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 11:47

Um, but the skills in in terms of the public seeking Pilates, and you know, certainly today there's a wide variety of Pilates available. Yes. Uh it's for for me personally, and what I'm hearing you say, is it's so important that we remember that the skill development piece is essential to the Pilates experience. Yes. Okay. I because that's that's not something that I think, or let me say it this way: I think it's easy to just make the apparatus another piece of strength training equipment.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Correct. And and that's what it was used for a lot when I came, when Pilates started becoming certifications and trainings, the PTs were using it as exercise equipment for physical therapy. Therefore, it became a reductionistic approach as opposed to a systemic approach, which Pilates is. Pilates truly does work from the inside out. If you follow it, it drains the lymph system, it settles the nervous system, it stimulates the digestive system, it's circulatory circulatory system. That's you know, it cleans the internal wash. Right. It cleans the body, but you have to systematically build the skills because if you don't, then your spine is not open, then the body isn't where it has to be for the detoxification to occur.

SPEAKER_02 13:13

Fantastic. Um, okay, so uh all of you have your the red thread.

SPEAKER_00 13:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:19

Okay, if we were at a dinner party, yes, and someone said, Well, you know, what's the red thread?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

What's your what's your elevator pitch? My elevator pitch. Um, the red thread is a Pilates method that focuses on building one skill at a time. And when you build the skill, you change the body.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

And when you say build the skills, uh is that a holistic view at the entire Pilates, you know, ecosystem?

SPEAKER_00 13:47

No, it's the mat. It's the mat. It's the mat. I utilize all the apparatus to build the mat. So, you know, when you look at the reformer and the mat, in the beginning, the reformer supports the mat. And then they become equals around the what I call, I don't have basic intermediate advanced. I have foundational, core, and advanced. Foundational because I take those primary positions of the body and I move it on your back, on your stomach, and on your side so that you understand that these are the exact same exercises, moving from flexion to extension and then balancing on sideline and integrating the flexion and the extension when you're sidelining. So that's my foundational level. My core level focuses on the two-way stretch and rotational. So you have to have that base, right? And then you start with all the rotational exercises. And then you're advanced as you incorporate everything, changing its orientation in space, changing the amount of uh points of resistance, and you add dynamic action. So this is the way I break down my system. And with the mat, you really need to build everything one step at a time. You have to be able to build that hundred into the roll-up, and then from the roll-up be able to stabilize for your one-leg circle. All of this, every single exercise integrates a new skill of movement against what you already know.

SPEAKER_02 15:28

So there's a progressive nature to it. Yes. And that progressive nature actually is, I would imagine this is the thread, is is threaded through the entire, the entire system.

SPEAKER_00 15:38

Correct. And that's how I teach somebody. I will, I teach one skill at a time. You can't learn. I get crazy when I see people and they're like, pull your hip, do this, do this, do that. No, you can't, you can't do it one at a time. Do it one at a time.

SPEAKER_03 15:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

You know, I mean, you I always think about uh when I ask my husband to do something, and uh if I say to him, Honey, can you take out the trash? Can you walk the dog? Can you go to the grocery store and get he hears wah wah wah wah wah wah? He doesn't hear me because everything is coming at him, right? One at a time. One at a time. Take out the trash. Exactly. Done, walk the dog, walk the dog, done, right? So your students are the same way.

SPEAKER_01 16:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

And we're movement-based. And if you keep stopping someone from moving because you are focusing on everything that they're doing wrong and you're correcting them, you're wrong. Because we should not correct, we should teach. So I teach my students every skill they need before I ask them to execute the exercise. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 16:44

We should not correct, we should teach. That's lovely. That's lovely. Um, so I take it a lot of your this foundational information has come to you through the many teachers that you've had. Um, can you elaborate for us some some of the teachers that some would consider the known elders and actually some of those historical teachers that are lesser known that you have studied with?

SPEAKER_00 17:08

Yes. So I was blessed enough to be with Romana from when I was very, very young, 18, 19.

SPEAKER_02 17:13

I really don't remember how it was.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

I really don't remember because Pilates wasn't, you know, now it's like Pilates in the the heavens open up and the angels sing. Yeah. You know, for me, it was I had to go because I was a dancer and I was hypermobile, and my artistic director did not want me to get injured. I also always struggled with my weight, and it was something to, you know, keep me toned and fit and help with balancing my body. Uh, I don't have a naturally lean body. I come from a stocky Italian family. So I'm sitting next to a stocky Italian. So, you know. So, you know, Pilates really helped me lengthen my muscles while maintaining the strength. So that was really uh the main reason why I went to Romana. And then when Romana studio closed, I, for that brief period, uh, my director took me to Kathy Grant, who was a whole different experience, a whole different way to look at the work. She was so methodical and so much about perfection and balance. And that's I learned from her how to move the springs around so that when somebody's on the reformer or somebody's on the chair, I use the settings of the springs to help elicit what response in the body that I want. Really fabulous for people with scoliosis. One little spring change can totally change the exercise for them. So I learned that from her. My first lesson with her, I laid down on the mat for probably 45 minutes with a rope on my foot attached to my stomach and bringing my leg up and down until she felt that I was moving from my stomach.

SPEAKER_02 18:57

Oh, wow, interesting. And this is after you've already worked with Romana for all these years.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

Yes. Oh no, it was it was a whole, but it was so fascinating that this was her approach, you know? And her lessons would be long. They weren't short. Romana's, they were 50 minutes with five minutes of chat, chat, chat, and then really 45 minutes of work and strong and moving and going from one thing to the next. With Kathy, it was much more methodical, um, very introspective. Then when I was at Romana's, she also had during the certification time, Edwina was there. And Edwina was this gorgeous dancer. A matter of fact, it turned out that when I was a young girl, I'd gotten her autograph. And I didn't realize that it was her.

SPEAKER_02 19:46

Oh, how full that what a lovely full circle story.

SPEAKER_00 19:49

And she was so sweet and so kind and so um introverted, but such a gifted teacher. And she took a lot of us into spaces that in such a graceful way that she got more out of you than you realized what she was doing, you know. Romana would get it out of you in her energetic way, but Edwina was like that soft water that ran deep, you know, and she would pull it out of you. And it was, it was just always glorious to be able to have a lesson with her.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

So those are three, like in that period of time, those are three very different approaches to work. So, what was the thread that came through the three of them?

SPEAKER_00 20:34

Movement. Movement, movement and alignment.

SPEAKER_02 20:41

And then did you ever feel any confusion going from one to the other, or did you immediately sort of feel and see the direction in which they were taking you?

SPEAKER_00 20:51

So I I had such a solid base with Romana that I was ready to have other chefs in the kitchen. You know, I tell students when they first come to me, I say, find your person. Find your person, train with them. You know, nowadays that it's a blessing and a curse that they can train with everybody everywhere, but they need a solid base. I had a really wonderful foundation with Romana, so I was ready to look at it from a different vantage point.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

You know, I think that's spectacular advice, especially for newer teachers, because sometimes I'll see they get confused. You know, they go around and they try and and and they feel like people are giving them contradictory information when actually more often than not, there is actually a similar thread that runs through.

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:46

But you have to start from that place of confidence, walking in the door. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:50

And you have to know your own body. Yes, that's true. Which is another thing that I find is that students don't train enough for themselves. They don't have a solid enough personal practice. So when they go to places, they're still searching for something that they should have already mastered before wanting to teach it.

SPEAKER_02 22:13

Now, I I think that's that's worth taking a second to look at, which what you're speaking to is practice, that Pilates is a practice. Yes. Right? It's not just an exercise thing you do once or twice a week.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

No.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

There's a practice component to it. Um, what would you say to a new instructor on how to incorporate this practice into everything that they do?

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Well, you have to remember that Pilates is not what happens in the studio, it's what happens outside the studio. The beautiful thing about Pilates is, and this is why in the studio, how you mount the apparatus matters, how you stand in the studio matters. The second you walk in the studio, you are aware of yourself. And that is the awareness that they need to take into their life. Every day, every movement is their Pilates practice. So whatever they worked on that day in the studio, whatever skill they work on in that day, you know, they're focused on, that is the skill that they're going to incorporate. For instance, I have flat feet. My feet are totally flat. You would never know.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

I would never know, especially given I don't know if you guys know this. She's got beautiful red shoes and they're high heels. So no, you would not know that.

SPEAKER_00 23:24

No, but because I worked on my feet so much, I am aware of it till it became unconscious that I was doing this. You know, Romana used to give me my lesson and she would talk to me through the whole thing. And she told me that I need to be able to move correctly without thought. She said I she used to have a ballet uh music teacher that would piano teacher that would tap her on the head when she was playing, so that she would be playing the music and it would just be in that the tapping would not bother her.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

Yeah, yeah, that the movement would would be automated in the body, and the body would respond and adapt uh and be able to be resilient in that way without this over being so overly conscious of every single thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

Sort of like a new driver, right? When you're a new driver, you're looking at every tree in person down the road, but then over time, as you're driving, you you you can see the distance, right?

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Correct, correct.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Um well, I think that's that's really like it's it's great advice for everyone, but it's particularly good advice for for newer instructors because it's easy, again, in sort of that in that initial space, to overly correct clients instead of sitting back and taking a um a long view teaching approach. Yes. Um so I've heard it say that about twice a year you reread return to life. I do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

Um why? To keep me grounded. This is the man's work that I teach. And if I'm teaching something that has his name on it, I have to honor it.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

What are some of the um, I would imagine every time you read it, you get you have a new take-home message or something new that you see.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

I pick a skill. So recently, my latest skill is heel to the seat, which is something that is has been lost. That when you, you know, you do your single leg, that first movement is actually the heel to the seat, and then you keep the heel to the seat, the knee to the chest, because that's going to build your rolling back with the heel to the seat and the knee to the chest. So there's always those little, there's every time there's something in there that I go, I need to get on this because I've let this go. And sometimes it just brings me back to the simplicity of it.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, yeah, this the simplicity, it it's it's we've made sometimes I think we've made it so complicated. Yes. Like even just what you've said, the the heel to the seat. I would imagine every time you read it, there's something that you either comes back to you that you remember, or you think, oh, I haven't done that in a while. I'm gonna reincorporate that. Yes. So it's probably a good habit for all of us to revisit, the revisit the work.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And to read the beginning. Yes. Yes. People don't read the beginning where he says you says to you, perfect the one exercise before you move to the next, which is so important. And and young instructors or new instructors must give themselves the grace and the patience to build those exercises. I tell them you can only focus on one skill at a time, and you need to at least do it 30 days, 30 lessons before that skill is part of you. So they need to give themselves grace. Build the grace, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Right? If you're trying to learn the piano and you sit down, you're not gonna play Bach right away. No, right? You need to learn it, you know, one phrase at a time. One note, one note at a time, one phrase at a time. Um, what other habits do you have that help you deepen your relationship with the Pilates method?

SPEAKER_00 27:17

I go to the studio all the time. I go to the studio all the time. I I investigate my own body, and every year I try to take um a willing or unwilling victim. And I begin, I make them do the work as Joe did. I do 10 lessons, I do 30 lessons in 10 weeks. And I begin from nothing so that I keep rooted in the reality of teaching regular people. So important. Because we become so important. Yeah, so important. And it keeps it and it keeps my mind stimulated. It helps me to communicate better to my teachers and I understand what they're dealing with because for instance, now, you know, everybody's really slouched and hunched over. Years ago, people wearing these big clunky boots, and so they had different hip and knee problems. They were all pushing forward in their pelvis. So now we have people humping over. So it really keeps me aware of what's walking into their studios as well.

SPEAKER_02 28:25

Gosh, that client piece is so important. You know, it was the client who kept the studios open, and it's the client who was there for all of our individual spaces. Um, and and sometimes I think when we move into that teacher training space, we start looking at it from the perspective of teacher trainers or or you know, people elevating into the teaching space, but it's the person who walks in off the street that we're trying to communicate this information to and develop the skills with. And that I think that's so important that that's where you go back to. That's your home base. Um so we when I walked in here, there was an electric chair in the room with us. Yes. And you had just done some filming on it. Yes. Um, and you've been influential in some of the development of the controllogy equipment. Um when you consult on a piece of equipment, what are some of the first things that come to mind? Like, what's important for you to transmit to, like if someone says, okay, look, we want to, we wanna we wanna make sure this really has the essence of the original apparatus, what are some of the things you share in order to get to that essence?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Good question. Um, because it's there's a lot. I was fortunate enough to train on many of Joe's pieces at Romana's: the baby chair, the Wanda chair, his electric chair, his Cadillacs, uh, his Swedish bars, his pedophile, his magic circle, his foot corrector.

SPEAKER_02 30:02

I guarantee you there's a whole bunch of people out there going, Swedish bars.

SPEAKER_00 30:04

Yeah, they're like, what is that? Um, his his his guillotine, uh, his sandbag. These were all made by him. So, and that I was there from the time I was around 18, 19 until Romano left New York City. So that's a long time, yeah. For me, the measurements are key. And I'm saying this is only for the work that I do, the method that I teach. There's different types of methods, they come from different lineages and they have different proportions. But for me, the equipment that I worked on, everything fit and dovetailed into the other. So when I'm I, for instance, if I'm um on my baby chair, the angle of the seat helps develop my angle of how I'm going to also be sitting in my spine corrector, or that when I flip my window chair over, I'm going to be sitting in that crevice, or that I'm going to be seated on my short box. So there's all of these angles in the equipment that echo in each into each other and that are clear. Like for instance, when your electric chair or your high chair or your high electric chair, electric high chair, whatever you want to call it, um when you mount it, if it is the correct uh dimensions, when my fingertips touch and my toes touch, and doesn't matter your height, if you take your heel to your seat and then fold it in your leg into your chest, your foot is past where the pedal is. So you don't bang the pedal. But if it's not, you hit the pedal, you have to bring the drop the foot down, or you have to twist your foot to get it up. So there are certain things that are just dimensionally universal and accurate.

SPEAKER_02 32:12

And then important to get not just in the apparatus that's being developed, across the different apparatus.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

Because they're all related to each other. Correct. Um, you know, that's interesting because I I don't think I've ever made or understood that relationship, as you said, with, you know, um with the spine corrector or the one to chair, right? Um what other, what other like I would imagine the six correlations? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

There's okay, so you know, Joe Pilates six to eight inches for your hundred. If you take your magic circle, yeah, the ones that Balance Body makes, which are fabulous, they're all in my studio, the circumference is six inches. The diameter from the center is six inches. Therefore, you are at your six inches before so it teaches you what you need. That that size of that circle is important for building that correct skill. Okay. Your uh uh electric high chair, the the width of it, it's not too wide. And if you put your hands there the way that it's set up, you go to your push-through bar with the cutout, it's in the same place. Yeah, I see. So there are so many correlations between each of the pieces of equipment that you don't even realize. For instance, on your uh ladder barrel, when you have your shoulders back against the barrel and you're standing in the well, and you go to swing your leg over, the way that the body stabilizes and moves is the exact way that it does in Joe's leg circle and return to life, where the hip twists and then it centers as you go on because of the proportion and the height of the barrel.

SPEAKER_02 33:57

Um, is that is that part of how you teach the apparatus when you teach the exercises on the apparatus? Do you do you thread through these commonalities?

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Well, I thread through as the person needs the skill. So not everybody needs every skill or every exercise, because some people have that skill. They're born with that skill. I'm not going to teach them what they already know. I'm going to work on what they need to learn.

SPEAKER_02 34:24

Uh, what would you say if there was one like lesser-known apparatus that you would recommend to instructors like to explore?

SPEAKER_00 34:36

They need to get a baby chair.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

A baby chair.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah. They need to get a baby chair. So in 96, I had a Graz copy that Joe's baby chair for me. And that's the one that Ken also came to play with and copied. It is it teaches the lift of the spine from a rooted seated position. It teaches you how to sit upright. And that to me was so lost in the work. People were sinking back and they're like, oh, C curve, C curve. And they were down. And it's not about that, it's about getting out of your spine, getting out of your bones, having your muscles support you. And the baby chair also teaches you full body engagement, hugging the feet in, showing you how important that heel to see action is to get it. There it is again. It keeps coming through. It keeps coming through. To get up and out of your pelvis, to get out of your spine, to put space in your vertebra. So to me, that if if if you don't have one, you need to put one in your studio.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Okay, baby chair. Um any of the smaller, the small, like the smaller apparatus. You mentioned the the ring, but anything else that is not commonly used.

SPEAKER_00 35:55

I live with the toe corrector. Yeah. I take one where I go. My husband takes one where he goes. Fantastic. So the the tokizmo toe corrector is very important. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

Um, I actually agree with you. I think it should be in everybody's suitcase. Like, don't even take it out, just leave it in there so you know it's there. Keep one there. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Um, what do you think are the pros and cons of the reformers' popularity today?

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Honestly, I don't think there's a con. And here's my philosophy They're weed in the garden. People will go and they'll do it. And the ones that are the people that really are meant to do Pilates as a method, will go, you know, this is great, but there's something more. And the people that don't, as long as it's a safe studio and they're teaching safely, they're gonna get a nice workout. You know, and it's better than them going and, you know, sitting at the gym and doing leg presses with over, you know, overloaded weights. They're getting a full body workout. So to me, that I'm very open about those things. Anything that brings people to the method, anything that brings people to Pilates, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

You know, I I I mean, I think I agree with you, and I think that's a very generous perspective. Anything, you know, because you're building, you're you're helping people uh uh at any level, you're helping people. Yes. Um, and again, as long as you as long as they're safe, but you're also um making people curious about what's next. Yes. You know, uh back in the when you started, you had to find Pilates, you had to be recommended to Pilates. So you already started from a deep place of curiosity. And of course, as a dancer, being recommended, it was also essential for for who you were. Yes, right. Um, but today this this idea of opening the door through the reformer is is is a really lovely way to look at it, I think. Um, but if you were to say to somebody who's that reformers their you know their primary thing and they wanted to take the next step, what should that next step be?

SPEAKER_00 38:08

They should go to a fully equipped studio. They should experience Pilates as a method and the depth of it. I mean, having the reformer is like only eating a steak.

SPEAKER_02 38:20

Well, I mean, that's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

No, but only there's no potato, there's no salad, there's no sour cream.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Right, right, right, right. And a few vegetables on the side would be helpful. Especially for the dungeon. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_00 38:31

It's just, it's just, I'm eating one thing. No, you know, you want a full meal.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Pilates Perspectives is brought to you by Balanced Body. You may not have room for a full studio in your home, but that doesn't mean your Pilates practice has to feel limited. Balanced Body offers space-conscious reformers, like our Metro IQ, along with smart, portable props designed for real life. Whether you're in an apartment, a shared space, or a busy household. Create a home practice that fits your lifestyle and supports the way you move. Explore what's possible at Pilates.com. As you're talking, I'm thinking back to being in New York City and in the early days of learning myself, and it was just all there like a big la like a big lab. Yes, you know. Um, what piece of equipment drew you the most when you first came to Pilates? Is there, is there an individual piece?

SPEAKER_00 39:37

No. I mean, I I I recall my first lesson because, you know, Romana came out from the back room and it was kind of like backlit. So she came out with this hair. And then I was saying, she's this little woman. I was like, you know, what's happening here? Um, and we I actually worked on the mat with her that day. I did the high chair that day, I did the Cadillac that day. I ended up on the reformer. I was on so much equipment, my first lesson, that I don't think that I don't know. I just never, I always saw Pilates as a whole, not as individual pieces of equipment.

SPEAKER_02 40:19

You know, Romana is known for her very fluid workouts, right? And like you said, you you you started and you just moved, right, the entire time. Did you ever ask her or in in your training with her, did she ever sort of walk through why she might have changed or started you in one place and moved you to another?

SPEAKER_00 40:37

No, you know, that generation didn't think about it. And that was one thing that made me change the way I taught. If you had asked Jay, he'd say, Well, because this is where they needed to go, where Romana, this is what they needed. You know, I took the lady with leopard pants to the Cadillac for her all of her lessons because that's where she needs to work. They didn't articulate why. So in my studio, when I started training teachers for her, I said to them, You ask me why I go to every piece of equipment, and I have to be able to verbalize to you why I chose it. Because I knew that this method would die if we were not able to say why. To say why. This to me was the only way was if I could quantify and qualify my decisions, I could then pass it on quicker.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

And how do you discern, though, or how do you how do you take that why? Um, I want to teach some to lift their head in the hundred, and to that first decision you make on where to go next. I look at the body, the body tells me. Fantastic. So that's fantastic. Um, so the body's giving you, you're, you're, you're creating the experience around the client. Correct. Not not it's not a pre-prescribed.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

No, no, no. There there are ways to, there are sound there are ways that, you know, are pretty general. That, okay, if I'm going to build them to be able to lift their head, I'm gonna go maybe to the baby chair and do the roll down, correct? I'm gonna go to the push-through bar and have them do the push-through.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

So that skill is seen in different ways, correct, right? Through through different resistances, correct, different uh orientations to gravity.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Now let's say they're they they they are a little rounded in the upper back. Well, then I have to choose to take them to a barrel so that the pressure of the barrel at the back opens up the back, which then allows for the articulation of the rib. So the skill has to be to build that skill, you have to choose where the individual needs to go to learn that skill.

SPEAKER_02 42:52

Yeah. What I love about the way you're phrasing that is you're not encouraging a diagnosis.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

No, right?

SPEAKER_02 42:59

But you're you are encouraging observation.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

And and using exercise as a pathway for that body to learn.

SPEAKER_00 43:07

Correct. Yeah. I also don't look at what they can't do. Yeah. What can they do? Uh, yes. I go, what can they do? You have to find the open door. What can you do? Oh, you can do this. Well, when you're doing this, that what you can do, what you're able to do, oh, you just opened another door because something changes.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

What uh uh that is really so lovely because we are much more able than not able. Yes. And but a but often clients will come in and the first thing they'll talk about is what they can't do. Um, and the default is okay, okay, well, let's get you to do what you can't do. But there's there's there's there's these little these little nuggets or these uh, you know, that breadcrumbs that you can lay for them and they could follow. Um I I just think that that's so. Worth understanding and hearing over and over and over, both the confidence of the teacher and the confidence of the instructor. Um if you were stranded on a desert island, Lilita asked me this. And you had one, one. It could be it could be a prop, it could be a piece of equipment, but one thing to bring Cadillac, because I have so many pieces of equipment on the one piece of equipment. I'd be stranded with a Cadillac.

SPEAKER_00 44:36

So it's my magnesium, right? I can challenge, I can build. I mean, it it's so diverse.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

I I I'm totally in total agreement with you. And you can actually sleep on it. And I can sleep on it. Exactly. I can put my feet up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 44:53

Absolutely. There's room for guests. Yeah, there's room for guests.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

Yeah, well, because with the trap table, you actually can work on a lot of these skills and find your ways around.

SPEAKER_00 45:02

Yes, absolutely. You can you can do uh I do a mat on my reform my Cadillac, I do a reformer on my Cadillac. So yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:13

Uh I I always I I'm with you on that. I always think that uh like when people say, well, you know, I have reformer, reformer, reformer, I'm like, well, get a trap table, get a get a Cadillac, get the and well, I have towers. No, no, no, you want the whole thing. You want the whole thing. Gotta be able to hang upside down. And you know what? Especially if you're stranded on a desert. Exactly. That could come in handy. Um you have a new client, they come in the door, and and you're and you know, they're like, ah, I hear about this reformer stuff, uh, I hear about this Pilates stuff. How do you educate them on the whole system?

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Okay, so it's my studio, so we're gonna play by my rules. I don't say this today, but this is what I think. I'm like, great, that's fantastic. Come over here, let's start your work. And what I always say is, I'm going to deepen the level that you've been working. I never say I'm going backward, because I am. I'm never saying to them, well, you need to start over and do it. No, nobody wants to start over and they shouldn't start over. They have some experience. No, I'm going to deepen your experience in this work. Let's go here. Great. So here's a story.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Uh, first time I met you, I was working at, I was working with Balanced Body at the time, and it was the PMA that they unveiled. Yes. Jay's reformer. Yes. Literally, talk about like, you know, your memory of Romana with the back lid and the hair. And I have this visual of the doors opening at the PMA and you coming in with your red pants, your red lycra pants, and and you walked right up to that reformer. And without, you know, it wasn't pre-choreographed, it wasn't predestined. You walked up to the reformer and you started to move. And literally, everyone just started to circle around you and, you know, draw jaws, it just felt like everybody's jaw was dropped. Um, and it was just just, it was just such a beautiful moment. And you got off the reformer and I just said thank you. And you, I don't know if you recall what you said to me. You said, I did it for him, that man deserves it. And you're gonna make me cry. It was, it was, it was the whole thing was just truly beautiful and it was a magical moment. Would would you just share what you were thinking at that time?

SPEAKER_00 47:40

I was thinking about how much I love Jay and how much he had given me, and that, you know, I was part of him being able to leave this part of his legacy for him, and you know, to execute the work on the apparatus that he had developed uh with Ken. It was just the best way I could honor him.

SPEAKER_02 48:05

Uh, and and that's what it felt like. It didn't, it didn't feel like a show, it didn't feel over the top, it just felt it felt so like you were authentically there in that moment. And so I I just again want to say thank you because it it was it was really just wonderful and beautiful to behold.

unknown 48:23

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 48:23

Yeah. Um and then um the second time we spent a little time together was at a Pilates on tour in Chicago. And this is something else I don't know if you remember. You actually uh there we do a presenter's dinner and you had gone off to the restroom. I happened to follow you. You were now coming out of the restroom, and these two women stopped you. And they loved your outfit. I don't know if you remember this. And they were just they were just so happy to talk to you. And I I just adored how you just literally you sat at their table, and you you it was it was just this moment of generosity. You know, you didn't just say thank you, thank you, and walk off, but you you totally let them into your space, into your world, and you chatted with them. Um, and it it just sort of made me chuckle and warm my heart in a different way. I think you are like that in the Pilates world, where where you know it could be intimidating to be in, you know, bringing somebody who's not classically trained or who doesn't have the physical practice that you have. Um, but yet you you have this openness about you. How how I don't, and I I think it's authentic, but how important do you think that is today in helping people find the most in their own practice?

SPEAKER_00 49:49

I love this work. I love this work in the depth of my soul. And anyone that wants to share that love, I have to. I have to. I have to. They deserve as much as I can possibly give them because I want them to love it like I love it, and I want them to understand how incredible and life-changing this work is. It is so life-changing. I can't even, you know, it Pilates saved my life.

SPEAKER_02 50:31

It saved your life? How? Like what what is what does that mean? I think because we hear this a lot, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Yes. So I was, you know, I was a dancer, I had I had eating disorders, and when I really got into Pilates, it brought me back to my body. It balanced me. It it was the one thing that uh reconnected me with me. And I feel that this is another gift that this work can do because most uh fitness separates you from your body. And that's why for me the systemic aspect of it is so important because it reconnects you with you. You have to feel your body. You can't do Pilates without really being present. And that presence is what is uh grounding. That presence is what brings you back. That presence is what connects your mind back to a healthy state, to you, and that's what this work does.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

And how important today as Pilates continues its rise to come back to that, it's like it's unique value that it brings to the table. Yes, and understanding that becomes so essential to it continuing. Yes, yeah. Um what do you say to someone who says, Kathy, they're feeling very casual with you, Kathy. I'm never gonna look like you in the red lycrape. What are the what like why should I do this?

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Because you are you will be the best of you, and that's beautiful. To me, just like looking at what opens the body, right? What lets me in. I think Pilates helps us see beauty within ourselves. And so when you are working with somebody and you're building their skills, they're going to achieve things that they never thought. They're going to stand taller, they're going to stand prouder. They're going to be the most beautiful version of themselves when they return to life.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I always thought my favorite stories from clients would be I went on vacation and I was able to get in and out of the bus without an issue, right? Like it's it's actually those small victories that that you know, um, it it may not be center stage, but for them, it's so meaningful. So the best version of themselves. Um that's beautiful. Um let's go back to the red thread. Absolutely. So if we take all of that and and we talk about, you know, the the red thread as a as a training. What what was the original like your original desire to put all of this together with all the information that you have been given out in the world and taught and experienced? What was that like initial or oh let me say it this way when did you decide red thread was was how you were going to encapsulate what it was?

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Good question. Well, but you know all the things baton the red thread represents. And to me, one of the most important things is that there's a proverb that states that the red thread stands for when you meet somebody, it is your job to elevate them in life. And that was so poignant for what we do. It has the life force connection, it has the connection to the blood, circulation, everything. But to me, what we do differently is we elevate someone's life when we do this work. So for me, that was the concept that I wanted to embrace in my work to teach it as a methodology. I saw the way certifications were, and we need certifications. Nowadays you need them. I grew up with a a true apprenticeship, which is what I prefer. But reality is that's not happening. So now we have these teachers that have all the vocabulary, but they don't know how to write a song with it. So this was what was missing in the work. This was the missing piece. So I wanted to share it.

SPEAKER_02 55:31

The idea of writing a song with it is actually really interesting to me as someone who's always interested in learning other languages or learning music. Uh, you can have all the parts, but then how do you put them together to create the magic? Yes. Um, and in terms of elevating that that speaks to what you said in the very beginning, which is teaching. Will you talk a little bit about because I think the teacher is also a part of the apparatus, it's another part of the studio. Absolutely. Yeah. Will you will you talk about uh raising up the teacher?

SPEAKER_00 56:14

You have to raise your up your teachers like you do your clients. One skill at a time. One skill at a time. And in with a positive hand. We have to, for instance, in my program, they all work together. So let's say you signed up for the red thread program, you start doing it, the PPATT. We begin by breaking down the mat and the skills, and they all work together. They all work hands-on, supporting each other, creating a family. And within that family, that dynamic elevates them. They can get feedback from another teacher that they can't get ever from a student. You know, you teach a student, they think, oh my God, this is amazing. But another can teacher will tell you a little more pressure on this hand. Oh, that was a little too much pressure. Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

And you can hear it, right?

SPEAKER_00 57:09

Yes. Because you feel safe in that environment. Exactly. So having that's a key point you said is safe. That you have to have a safe environment. You cannot learn where there's fear, you cannot learn where there's criticism, you cannot learn where there's chaos.

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Now, with all due respect, and I don't want to make any sort of assumptions, but but in those early days coming out of the dance world, you you had competition. Oh, yes. You had fear of being hurt. You, I mean, so and and there were there it there's a lot of chaos in there. Correct. Um, so how did you navigate that to come to where you are today?

SPEAKER_00 57:48

I taught clients for years. I didn't come from a training program and become a master teacher. Or I taught clients for decades. For decades, real people, real bodies, real problems, real people. For decades. I would teach from early to late. That's how I came to I this is when you want to teach a human, you have to have humanity. And this is how the work works. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Okay, you ready for a few rapid fire questions? Go. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Uh, what is your definition of Pilates? Kinetically correct exercise method that rebalances the body.

SPEAKER_02 58:37

Now you've kind of already answered this, but um favorite piece of Pilates equipment, big or small, and why?

SPEAKER_00 58:44

Baby chair, because it teaches the missing piece of the work.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

I really agree with that, by the way. And actually, I got that from you, just so you know. Um, what's one misunderstanding about either Pilates or the larger profession that you wish more people understood?

SPEAKER_00 59:00

That it's stretching, that it is for women, that you cannot build muscle with it. It is for men. It was by a man for men, and it's great for men.

SPEAKER_02 59:18

Yes. Yes, yes. So, what's one habit that you do for yourself that complements your Pilates practice that you hope others would do?

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Take their toe corrector with them.

SPEAKER_02 59:31

Oh my god, I'm telling you, everyone buy multiples, put them in your suitcases. Like your reading glasses. Whenever you have reading glasses, whenever you have reading glasses. Yes. Um, so any books or podcasts you would recommend? Um, this one.

SPEAKER_01 59:50

I thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 59:55

That's great. Oh, there's so many good, there's there's a lot of good books out there.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Um what would you recommend, new students?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

Uh return to life. There we go. I mean, simple, you know, for your health and return to life. If you haven't read them, please do so right now. Run. I think it's like $26 on Amazon.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:15

Get them and and do read it because I do know that you know the the languaging in it can seem a little dense. Yes, you know, and and take some time because every paragraph actually, there's multiple paragraphs in it. Yes. So so take your time, read it, and and and do see it through all the way to the end. I totally agree with you. All right. Before we conclude today, where can people find you? How can they reach out to you if they want to be involved in in your red thread program or follow you just uh generally? How do they do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Oh, I'm easy to find. You're easy. You're easy to find it. I'm easy. I'm easy. Um, you can find me here. Uh uh, you can find me my website, Katherine Ross Nash.com. You can find me Instagram, the red threadranch underscore score K R N. Uh Amazon. I have a lot of books based on the red thread method, working on a brand new one. Uh new, I'm reading. You could have recommended that book, you know, but well, I know, but it's I this is I'll recommend it for you. Thank you. This is who I am. I'm like, read Joe's book. Um this is my great sales pitch. I go, if you're not gonna read it, don't buy my book. Because it's expensive. Uh-huh. So I go, if you're not gonna read it, if it's gonna be a coffee table near it, don't buy it. Only buy it if you're gonna use it. You know, we work hard for our money. It's expensive. It's worth the money, but it is expensive. Um, the new book that I'm working on, the new red thread map book, it's totally different than the first one, different information, but I'm really excited about this book because it is in the language I speak now. So every exercise that's in there, all the building variations, so people don't always realize that variations are given for a reason. They're given to bring a focus. They just think that they're fun. Let's do the different no, variations are for a reason. So, for instance, with the hundred beginning with your legs down so that you can build your upper stomach. So this goes through all the variations and it pinpoints what skill of the goal exercise of the hundred that variation is building. It tells you a piece of apparatus to help you build that skill. It makes a general suggestion. It makes a general suggestion. And then when you get to the CV exercise, the challenge variations, which then challenge, you've done the goal, you can do the goal, and now we're starting to move towards the next exercise, you'll see the challenge variations, and they will show you how they thread to the next levels of exercises.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:52

You know, you just said like your language, it's more in your language of today. Um can you just give license to instructors who now might read your book and be like, oh, well, this is kind of going to change the whole way in which I teach, and I'm and that means everything I've done before is wrong. No. Can you just give them license? It's not wrong to grow.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

You know, so so when I wrote my first book, people were coming to Pilates, and there were a lot of people that were just entering from a different form of Pilates into the more uh the work that I teach. And they there was a lot of corrective behavior happening because they had learned one way. And so now I was showing them this is how you're gonna do this. Well, you might see this habit coming in. If you see this habit, this is what you're going to do to help learn the skill to not do that habit. Um listen, I teach different than I taught 10 years ago. Amen. I I better teach differently. So so what you it doesn't matter what your path was, your path brought you here today. And that's the most important thing. My path brought me here, your path brought me here. That's that's what all they have to worry about, right? You're here, you're on another step, and you know what? 10 years from now, you you're gonna look back at how you teach today and you're gonna go, oh my God, I can't believe I taught that way. And hopefully 10 years after that, the same thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:30

That's right. You keep evolving, and it it doesn't mean you lose what was before. It just becomes part of your your teaching story, yes. Right. Um, okay, before we leave, uh, do you want to share? Uh we you didn't mention the app. You have an app. I do. Uh and the it the the it the it's the red thread. It's the red thread, yeah. Uh so they could also find an app that can could sort of help. Is that app for all instructors? Is it all instructors?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

All instructors. All instructors. I have people that don't have the controllogy style equipment that have more contemporary equipment and they use the app all the time. All the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:10

So it'll translate and it'll give uh a so if you're interested in the red thread or in Kathy's work, you can.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:19

If you're interested in building skills, you don't even have to be interested in the red thread. If you are struggling to build your clients' exercises, when you click on the app, you click on that exercise. If you do the add next exercise, it'll you'll get four pieces of equipment where I personally teach how to do the exercise to build the skill, the skills of the exercise that you're trying to build. So it doesn't make a difference if you don't, you don't want to have to learn. No, the app will just teach you how to work, build those exercises.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:54

All right. And then before we go, um, you have another love in your life. And it and I I should say two loves. Your your husband is in the room. So but other than your husband, what's the other big and Pilates, what's the other big love in your life?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

My children.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:08

Yeah, your children.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:09

That was gonna, that was gonna my Australian Shepherds.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:14

They're show dogs, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:15

They are show dogs, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

Australian Shepherds, yes. But I um they're they are puppies with a purpose.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:21

They are puppies with a purpose. Yeah, but I love the brain. Yeah, quite brain. I love the brain. You want to talk about skills. Oh my gosh. Developing skills, yeah. That's and that is, you see, when you work with animals and you train animals, you really understand how you have to train with clarity. You have to train with clarity. Well said.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:45

Catherine Ross Nash, I'm gonna be formal. Um, thank you so much. This was really delightful. Joy, thank you so much for having me.