Pilates Perspectives
Pilates Perspectives is your guide to how Pilates fits into real life, no matter your experience level. We unpack the method’s many approaches and history, where it sits in today’s wellness landscape, and simple ways to apply it day to day. Episodes range from building community through movement to using Pilates in physical therapy and rehab. We also explore timely topics, including education standards, diversity expansion across the field, and embracing Pilates as a lifestyle that supports both body and mind.
You’ll hear from seasoned teachers, clinicians, and thought leaders who share firsthand experience and evidence-informed insights; useful for curious beginners and long-time pros alike. Our aim is to offer practical knowledge, foster inclusivity, and widen perspectives so the practice continues to evolve for everyone.
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Pilates Perspectives
There's No One-Size-Fits-All In Fitness
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Joy and Shelly Power, VP of Education at Polestar, have a thoughtful conversation on navigating movement advice and fitness misinformation in a world full of conflicting information. Shelly Power shares how to identify fitness misinformation, evaluate sources, and model critical thinking in fitness when deciding what guidance to trust. She also explores why evidence-based movement is rarely as simple as “right” or “wrong,” and how movement professionals and practitioners can prioritize safety, effectiveness, and the individual needs of each body.
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Hello and welcome to Pilates Perspectives. This is Joy, and today we have Shelly Power to talk about the fact that in movement there is no such thing as one size fits all. But first, let's check in. For today's check-in, I'd like you to take some time to focus on you as an individual. In previous check-ins, we have focused on individual sensations or parts of the body, as well as your identity. But right now, I invite you to reflect on you and your own journey with movement and fitness. As we've outlined in Pilates Perspectives, Pilates instructors, clients, and educators can come from a wide variety of backgrounds. Some people come to Pilates while in recovery for an injury. Others come to better their general fitness. We all start at different baselines, and our relationships to health, fitness, and exercise can get complicated quickly. Today, I invite you to, without judgment, think about your experience with movement, with fitness, uh, with your health, and think about it throughout your life. How has it changed over time? How has your relationship to fitness changed? How has your relationship to your body changed, amplified, whatever? Lastly, before we conclude this check-in, I want to challenge you to identify something you're proud of that relates to your own personal health journey. That could be anything from celebrating a consistent movement practice or just taking pride in getting up and having taken a bike ride or a walk and knowing that your body is capable of so much. And by participating in this thought exercise right now, take some pride even in that. You have already taken your steps toward taking care of yourself. Either way, allow yourself a little gratitude and if needed, a little grace, and keep moving. Thank you for taking that time. Okay, so today we have on Shelly Power, Vice President of Polestar Pilates Education. A Polestar principal educator, Shelly has taught for Polestar since its founding in 1992. Throughout her career, Shelly has dedicated her time, energy, and expertise to uplifting the Pilates landscape. From her co-founding of Pilates Polestar Center Miami to her worldwide teacher training initiatives, Shelly is tirelessly committed to uplifting clients, instructors, educators, and everyone in between through movement. You can find Shelly at Polestarmiami.com and PolestarPilates.com or on Instagram at ShellyA Power. Welcome to Pilates Perspectives. I'm Joy and here with Shelly Power. And today we want to talk about how no one size fits all in fitness. But before we do that, let's introduce you to Shelly. Shelly, welcome. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. So exciting to have you here. Shelly, let's just take a quick walk down memory lane. I saw a picture recently at a trade show circa, oh, could it be the late 80s, early 90s, with you and Elizabeth, Brent, and Ken at some trade show, I think iAdams.
SPEAKER_01Could have been iAdams, could have been the physical therapy conference. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What was it like back then, schlepping a reformer and showing up to a trade show and doing this thing that very few people have heard about?
SPEAKER_01Exactly. I no one knew what Pilates was.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And now it's kind of a known thing. If we go to pretty much any conference, fitness Pilates, physio, it doesn't matter. People know or at least have an inkling of what Pilates is. Back in the day, no one knew what it was. Yeah. You had to describe it in great detail. They didn't know the equipment.
SPEAKER_00And what was the tagline? Like, how did you guys describe it?
SPEAKER_01Well, I get in trouble, you know, the ever people like to point out when you're wrong or you're, you know, whatever. And I at some point you have, I at least have to say it's like yoga because it could be like basket weaving or windsurfing. Like it's not like those things. It's kind of like yoga. It's not like basket weaving. Well, sometimes. But it's it is like yoga in the sense of the movements are very similar. And then you can start, you know, and we have equipment and we work on assisted movement. And you know, so then we can go on from there. And then obviously telling them that Joseph Pilates was a real person who made up this whole body of work and isn't it funny?
SPEAKER_00Full circle, we have to do that today. I I know. Tell people that there was a person and it's a whole system of movement. And and even though it's so widely known now, that that that piece is still is still something that needs to be true. They don't they don't know that. Yeah. Oh, he was? Yeah, yeah. Ken and I were recently at a trade show and he said, How many of you knew Joe Pilates was a person? And and half the people raised their hands. Uh so so full, I guess full circle in many ways. Um, so from those early days, um I mean you've been teaching movement education since the early 90s, since those early days. What's changed? What's stayed the same?
SPEAKER_01Well, I think in Pilates, certainly it's the access to Pilates that is drastically different than it used to be. So there are so many studios now. It is widely used with athletes, with you know, pretty involved physical therapy, right, performance training, everything.
SPEAKER_00So not just that there's more studios, but that there's also different populations that are coming to wider application.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it was all happening back then too, but just on such a smaller scale. I I laughed when I um thought about our physical therapy clients, you know, the patients at at Brent's that we saw for workers' comp, they hurt their knee climbing in and out of their big truck, or they were a dock worker here in Sacramento and they hurt their back. And they came in, and their primary mode of physio that was movement was Pilates. And then it got popular, and I could see it around the dinner table. Some, you know, big dock worker at down at the port and saying, you know, oh, honey, you know, I've been doing Pilates for a year after his daughter or somebody says, you know, Dad, I I learned this new about this new movement. He's like, ah, yeah, I've been doing that for a long time.
SPEAKER_00So so those early 90s, then movement education started. So then you've been really a part of the growth of Pilates from from really the very beginning, and Pilates movement education, which started in the early 90s. Um, in terms of truly just education, you know, how how are you seeing the student change or the needs of education change?
SPEAKER_01Well, part of it is it was it was very authoritative, not in a not in an aggressive way, but it's like, I'm the teacher and I'm gonna teach you these things and you need to learn them. And we just don't teach like that anymore. At least in Polestar, we don't teach like that. I I think most of us have changed to look a little bit more at what is the essence of the movement that we're doing. And this is what we had to do in the physical therapy clinic. Right. Because if somebody had a spinal cord injury or had lost a limb, um, you know, any any different thing, they couldn't do the exercise the way it is in return to life, or, you know, how Joe taught it, or even the first generation teachers taught it. And we had to figure out what's the essence and then go after that in the way that could suit that person. So they're getting the benefits of Pilates, even though they can't really do it per se, and and have it look like what everybody else is doing. And with that, started to realize, like, wow, there's a ton of people who can't do it that way, the quote unquote, you know, the way. And I found it really interesting. Years later, I was talking to some Pilates teachers, and they were now interested in how we could have these tools to modify exercises. And I just thought, really? Is that what we're, you know, you're you're just coming to that point right now? Because that's amazing. Because I certainly haven't had clients that all could do it the same way.
SPEAKER_00Right. Right. It's how do you distill the the, you know, if you look at the system and the method, there's there's um, I mean, there's just some lovely movement components in there. And how do you distill the essence, as you say, of of what you're trying to achieve in that body and what that body can do? Um, but then that actually starts to move us into this idea of it's not it's not a one size fits all. Like it maybe, maybe there's these aspirational moments, um, movements, applications, but um you you've been you know quoted as saying, you know, everyone is different and perfection isn't a goal. Like, what is what does that mean to you? Well, I don't even know what perfection is.
SPEAKER_01Like what really? I it what is that? If the person is moving better than they were before, they feel good about it, and the big thing is they're able to participate in their life, what they think and believe that they should be able to do and what they need to do, right? For you know, their just daily living. I need to get up and down off the floor, I need to be able to stand up from a chair, or I'm a high-level athlete and that's my work, or it's recreation. That's getting them to be able to participate in their life. That's that to me is what it's about. Not, you know, I don't know what perfect is. I I wouldn't even be able to define it because we aren't perfect bodies in that in that sense. Like we're not an anatomy.
SPEAKER_00Does it another thing that is seeming in a funny way to come back when you look at some of the Instagram posts?
SPEAKER_01It is, right?
SPEAKER_00Like we sort of had it in the beginning, as as as I I really think everyone was just also trying to really distill the system in many ways, and and it it was performative in nature, and then we're seeing it now on this backside as people are trying to aspire to a clip they see. Right. Um, but but part of your quote says, know what you're trying to achieve.
SPEAKER_01That's I and again, that's that's the whole part of participation. Yeah. Like for this client, like we could take the same exercise, uh, knee stretch, let's say. Knee stretch. And I don't know, it just came to mind. And how would that look for different people? And why might they do it a certain way with a certain spring setting? And and this is challenging when you're a student of this work, you know, and we've realized, like, okay, we have to have some some rules and guidelines, but as you know, Brent's often quoted um what he talks about breathing, it's breath is a tool, not a rule. There's no one right way. You should always exhale now or inhale now. Breath is a tool, not a rule. And you I think you could put in any different thing for breath. You know, movement is a tool, not a rule.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh, choreography, springs, all these things, because it really needs to meet the individual. And then if you are an educator of this work, then you do need to lean in a little bit more to knowing those things and the performative side of it, if that is available to your body.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Well, that's one of the things that sort of full disclosure been looking at a lot lately is like if you are a Pilates teacher training, teach the Pilates, but, or maybe it's and, right? Then know from that how do you help people to achieve what they want to achieve? Exactly. Right. Exactly. Um, so that that sort of dovetails sort of nicely on this larger conversation and a larger topic. Uh, it's overwhelming now to know, you know, there's Pilates studios everywhere. So even now with Pilates, it's overwhelming to know do I do group, do I do private, do I do um, it's overwhelming when you're walking in a grocery store and you're just trying to, you know, do your daily grocery list. And it's like, well, do I need to have this protein bar or this shake or the, you know, do I need to add collagen to my tea? And which green tea do I use? And um, and I think as I as as even I get confused with all of this, and I look at it, I I I I think about Pilates in our industry, and I think actually the most important thing is that the client returns and that they are moving towards something they want to achieve. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01I would. And it's okay if they're not doing the best at Pilates. It's okay if their teacher hasn't been teaching for 30 years.
SPEAKER_00Is everybody safe?
SPEAKER_01If they're safe and they like what they're doing, and they like what they're doing, then it's okay. And then can we, you know, like you and I and other people in the industry that are teaching the teachers and and we are on social media a bit more and we work for companies that are well known, can we help to bring everybody up? So if somebody's not doing it the right way or teaching all, you know, with the most technique and all of that, say okay, but they are they probably want to, right?
SPEAKER_00I would imagine. Most people want to.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and let's support that. Let's help them be better teachers and you know, then they will have clientele that will stick around a little bit more.
SPEAKER_00Um, well, yeah, that goes then if they're if if if we can make them more curious, right? And I think the same is true for the client. And I haven't quite figured this out, which is which is um how do we instill that curiosity in the client to maybe want to know more? That's a great question. Well, because I think it's an industry-wide question, and I think it's it does go globally to all of fitness in many ways.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it can. It could apply to it could apply to anything. And I, you know, I think just continuing to do what we do to be, you know, because like you said, the the fancy, really creative, crazy choreography on Instagram that gets a lot of likes, it gets a lot of views. Yeah, yeah. And and it's fun and it is motivating. Yeah. And if we're continuing to put other things out that complement that of, okay, so you want to do this. Yeah, here's where you might start. Here's some questions you could ask your Pilates teacher about whatever, you know, insert the topic, uh, a particular movement. Uh, and I try to get my my clients uh to do that kind of, you know, have some curiosity. Oh, my doctor said I shouldn't do this. Did they tell you why? And I think there's not enough respectfully, you know, questioning people, not well, why, you know, with that kind of I doubt what you're saying and I want to know why, but really curious, like, okay, so you told me not to do these types of movements with my injury or my body type. Uh could you tell me more about that? And I think we all need to do that. And it's hard in health, just in healthcare. You don't you have five minutes with your doctor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. You know, but could you get that in and say, Well, you have five minutes with your doctor, and often you're given rules.
SPEAKER_01True.
SPEAKER_00Right. But so I want to know why. Right.
SPEAKER_01But because it it will affect what then I could do as your Pilates teacher. Yeah. Because I'm constantly asking why.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, because we have the tools, right? That goes back to the rules and the tools. Like um, that that's that's really interesting. My father-in-law, um uh he he was the kind of guy that if he got into running, he did marathons.
SPEAKER_02Uh right.
SPEAKER_00It was just all or nothing. And I think today we see a lot of triathletes, we see a lot of, you know, the you know, on the weekend, uh golfing all weekend, or basketball playing all weekend, or or hundred-mile bike rides people are training for. Um, but the essence of some of the movements that actually build the skills to get where you want to go, which I think is the the really the foundations of what we teach, right?
SPEAKER_01Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00Um uh how do how do we get people to invest or understand that it isn't all or nothing, that the small things matter?
SPEAKER_01It's it's tough sometimes. I mean, uh going, going, trying to change somebody's like it's almost in their DNA. So it is a little bit of a challenge. Um, I think you have to do it gradually. I think you have to find the the little crack that you can get in, that little entry point. And if somebody can experience, to me, it's a experiential, if they can experience that, oh wow, if I do these few, you know, what would be considered, you know, too easy movements, you know, they're they're not, you know, I'm not getting hot and sweaty and I'm not working out. But wow, if I do those that way, then I notice in my movement, ah, when I'm cycling those hundred miles or I'm up, you know, running in the mountains on a trail, my knee doesn't hurt as much or my my recovery is faster or better. And once they can experience it, then they can't not have the experience. Right. They've felt it. Right. And that tends to then lead them down that path, I think, of of, oh, okay, I could, I could open up that there are some other things that are complementary to what I'm doing. And also you don't have to stay doing the very basic things.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It's just for now.
SPEAKER_00It's just for now. And it it's the it's it's a way to get to what you want to achieve. Absolutely. Uh well that's that, you know, whoosh, that's so big because uh even you we go back to our conversation about new instructors, they don't have to be perfect, but if they too have that sort of faith that the small steps get you to where you want to go and the curiosity to go deeper, and if we can, you know, uh instill that in a felt experience with our clients, maybe that starts to create that that pathway that we're talking about. But it's it's really hard because the general larger mindset around fitness. I mean, here we are, we're we're we're having this conversation in early February, right after the January, everybody coming out of the new year, you know, out of the holidays, you know, gung-ho about fitness. And right about now, everybody's resolutions are starting to wane because they don't know, like, you know, it's overwhelming. Well, if I can't strength train three times a week, is it enough? Is Pilates enough for me? How many times, you know, should I should I add creatine to my drink, right? It starts to compound itself. Um, how are how do you feel about the Pilates spaces as being spaces that can sort of reset or align mindset around fitness?
SPEAKER_01Around the other topics too, of even nutrition.
SPEAKER_02Exactly.
SPEAKER_01I think it's there's a fine line. I think it's I I do think if you have a facility where there are people who are trained in whatever topic it is. Um, I'm a I'm a Pilates teacher and I'm a gyratonic teacher. I I know about personal training in the sense of lifting weights and things, but I I I would never promote myself as that because I'm not trained in it. And I haven't, I don't know enough. It's you know, the the old, you know, the more you know, the more you know you don't know. The more you know, the more you know you don't know. Opposite, you know, the less I know, I think I know everything.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and could I give somebody some good information? Probably. But it's not within my scope of practice. But I think if there are, and we've done this in Polestar for a long time of just the the physical therapy and movement pieces happening together because someone doesn't stay in physical therapy forever, they shouldn't. Right. Um, and people who move might need a little bit of tune up and and work with somebody who knows more about their body than I do, right? And has that skill set. So I think if you can have those things of people, even referrals, people could come in and give a talk about nutrition, but get get somebody who really knows, get a dietitian, you know, whatever um degree somebody would need to have or training, because I there is so much misinformation out there that it becomes just it. I like you said you're confused. I'm confused. Do I need creatin? I mean, I'm I'm almost 60s. Like, what else do I need to have? Do I need more protein? Do I need these things? And, you know, I try it and see how I like it. And I I've got enough sense, you know, done this enough time that I can kind of tell, but I don't really know. You know, I'd I'd I'd love to get more information on that.
SPEAKER_00How do you how do you shut out the noise? Uh and how do you shut out the noise around it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I guess it's just like look for like what I do is I look for some like through line of most people are talking about this topic and are singing this. Then you can, it's like, okay, so there's some consensus. It doesn't mean it's right necessarily. There's consensus on a lot of things that I, you know. But then you can go down that that specific path and maybe look a little deeper. Go to somebody who has that knowledge, look, look up things, and are they referenced in some sort of professional journal? Um, PubMed, I just taught a new group of reformer teachers.
SPEAKER_00Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01And one of them was a researcher in like a genetic researcher. Oh, wow. And so I said something, and I said PubMed, and her eyes got all big because this is one of the places that we can go to see has something, has research been done on some topic? Right. And again, you can you can read research any way you want and you can make it, you know, fit your narrative. But did somebody actually look to see is this a real, is this real or are is it just anecdotal and you know? Right.
SPEAKER_00We I mean maybe part of that is is giving the tool uh to people who are asking questions of how to do the research. Yes. The internet is not the best guide because if you're just putting in a search, it's gonna give you what you're kind of scrolling for.
SPEAKER_01Absolutely. And it knows, it knows things you've looked at before. Right. Looking up a topic, I can see what's been referenced. So, oh, this is uh this is a British Journal of Medicine, you know, link, or this is some, you know, wonky website that may be okay. I don't want to say it's not, but it's not, it's not as well known. And so then I can start to see. So maybe giving people those tools of yeah, here's some here's some publications, here's some places to look for those things, um, so they can they can make smarter choices.
SPEAKER_00You know, uh, as you're talking, um, and I, you know, we are Pilates perspectives, so of course I'm bringing it back to Pilates, but I don't actually mean this is just Pilates. I I do think when clients come to us, we become a trusted partner. And so then some of the questions I have for myself and for us as as educators is how can we also instill in our students this, you know, the the these kinds of skills that just go back to how do you reference or how do you how do you look for the, you know, if if somebody is asking you X, how do you look to provide them with a trusted, reliable resource, whether it's bringing in a nutritionist or teaching people to go, you know, go to more reputable research, you know, documents? Everybody can read the the summary of a research article and get a sense for trends and understanding. And that will also lead to the next questions. So we become trusted partners. Um, and part of the new student journey um is is interesting because like at what point do we can we instill that in the the new student as they're moving toward instructor? I think from day one, yeah, is that a way to say that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, no, I'm with you. And not that they will hear everything on day one, because they're they're bombarded with so much, so much, so much. But if we model, if the way that we talk about things can happen from the beginning, then they're used to hearing that. They can maybe absorb it a little bit better when somewhere in their training we say, let's have a chat about this, or let's all look this up together, you know, whatever it is. It could and it could be again about Pilates. It could be Pilates history, it could be, you know, let's let's take a deeper dive. Right. And where are we going for that information and how would you, what would be the best way to go about it? Um, things like even communicating with our clients' medical team. You know, there's protocols around that. You can't just, oh, I know that you go see Dr. Smith, I knock on Dr. Smith's door and say, hey, well, I'm seeing Joy. She's my client. And, you know, hopefully, advice for me. Exactly. And hopefully he's saying, Um, excuse me, I can't talk to you about this. You know, I could send an email and you could be part of the email with your permission. Joy has given me this, you know, da-da-da. I'd love to talk to you about this if you have the time. So just certain things like that. Um, but I think we can, I think we can start it early and just keep layering and layering, and some will pick up on it earlier than others. And I think that's okay. And and it again, it is what we model. Yeah. So if we're modeling that, they're more likely, I think, to follow along.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And and um it's interesting as we're going through this conversation. Lots of lots of thoughts are coming to me uh in terms of the industry that is Pilates. And and those early days with you guys, and I do love those photos because you know we all had big hair, we all had dark hair. We all had a lot of people. Yes, it was a different color and a different height. Um and and you know, it was a simpler time, but the influence of Pilates was very small at the time. Now the influence of Pilates as being synonymous with health and well-being is just so much greater. And and also all of us, I think, in the different teacher training spaces, we're all coming more toward that movement does not have to be perfect. Movement is the is, you know, finding the essence of the movements on the equipment that can help the individual, right? Even if you're in a group setting, how can you cue in such a way that each individual hears what they need to hear for themselves? Um, it's offerings. So now that that influence is larger, if what you're saying about like from day one, if we can get in there with the curiosity and the offerings of like of how to show up in the wellness space, then maybe that starts to shape the bigger picture.
SPEAKER_01I hope so. I hope so, because I do feel like we are doing that. Yeah. And, you know, going to conferences and going to different events where people will come together, whether it's a fitness conference that has Pilates as part of it, you know, is part of that offering, along with all the other modalities, or it is a Pilates conference, or it is a physical therapy conference. I think the more that we have those conversations and those touch points, um, and I recently taught at a Pilates conference where it was a really different demographic of people than I was used to. For I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, what, we're both like 30, 30 plus years. And and I know we also speak. Oh, was I supposed to say that? Um and it's and it's it, and of course, we talk a lot to ourselves as a community. So that's that's fine. And I get that. But this was a Pilates conference that had Pilates teachers. And many of the things that we're talking about, like this, like one of the things I like to bring up is right and wrong. That's right or that's wrong. Like, well, it's movement. So, yes, I could say in sidekick from the mat work, the goal, one of the goals is to move your leg in all these different ways without disturbing your body position or alignment. But it's not wrong to do rotation in your trunk opposite of your leg. How else do you walk without looking like John Wayne? And no one's gonna know who John Wayne is, but that's okay. He walked now leg together. Now we're giving ourselves away. Yeah. And so again, these like these maxims of like this is right and this is wrong. Yes. But this group, and this was recent, was very much like that. I was taught I had to do it like this. And one of them was lying down doing footwork with probably every muscle in their arms and their trunk switched on to the point where they almost couldn't really move or breathe. It was a little scary. And they were very receptive when I said, Okay, but again, why are you doing that? And the over the overarching response from people is because that was how I was taught. Yeah. And and that's okay. But again, there comes that, you know, questioning. It's like, is this really the only way you could do it? Is there any other way? And yeah, I just found that very I thought those days had passed.
SPEAKER_00No, I I do feel it in larger volume of people coming in today than in the early days, there's many similarities today to when when we started. There, because I there's sort of there is uh another generation that is coming in that is finding this and is seeking to understand it. Um and uh and so much of that, you know, like I want to know right and wrong and and and to tell it to me pretty quick because I'm not all in for a journey. Um, but that that's that's something that permeates this bigger conversation of what's out there in terms of health and wellness. So I kind of feel like if we can kind of crack that code now in Pilates, we um as an industry, we can help shape those experiences. And I think it comes back to something you said early on, which is let's create experiences for people. Absolutely. Because once you feel footwork without having to clench your jaw, yeah, it's a very different experience. It's a different, different experience.
SPEAKER_01And they can't not have that. They may not like it, they may prefer to do it a different way, may choose the other way. Fantastic. Yeah. You've now made an educated choice, though, between a couple of things, as opposed to just only doing one thing and thinking that's the only way. That's right. You know, if it was food, it would be like, you know, your mom used to make you eat Brussels sprouts as a kid that were steamed to death with no flavoring. Well, they're disgusting. Now you have Brussels sprouts and they've got all these seasonings, all this stuff. And you've got a little panchetta in there. Oh, fantastic. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And it cracks me up actually, the the revival of Brussels sprouts.
SPEAKER_01I know. I love them. But it's if you've never, you know, you just know that you don't like them. But then you try it a different way. It's like, oh, I actually like it this way. We should be doing that a lot, a lot more than we're doing it. Right.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah. It um does it does it make you concerned for the future of the Pilates industry?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't think so. I think there's enough of us out there. I think there's, you know, and and this goes to any any topic we could talk about. I I look at the pendulum swing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So right now we are in the pendulum way over to one side with everybody's got a reformer studio and group reformer and da-da-da. And, you know, then we also have the more boutique Pilates things going on, and and it's way over there. And it'll come back again. Like I think also this, you know, longevity in in any, you know, with any topic or any situation or any profession, you you've seen the pendulum go a few times. So I'm I'm not that concerned.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I just would like to I'd like to make it as easy of a transition out of the big, the big um lean into one side and find the middle a little bit.
SPEAKER_00And find more of that, more of that settling, if you will. Um in you yourself, you you've got a diverse movement background, right? You teach Pilates, you teach gyratonic. Um tell us more about your movement background.
SPEAKER_01Uh first started with um ballet at a at a cute little ballet studio within our YMCA. Um and I'm actually still in not very regular contact, but I still am in contact with my very first ballet teacher from 1970 something, you know, it's so it's so fun. And so I did that. I went on to dance, um, realized that my body, like my actual structure of my body was not really made for classical ballet. I loved classical ballet, uh, but I my physical structure just doesn't, it doesn't meet the aesthetic. So I moved myself into more contemporary dance and tap and all different things, and that's where I started teaching with no experience whatsoever. Like, here, you're gonna teach some classes. Okay. So, you know, you live and you learn and you get through that. Uh, I also was a gymnast and not a not a great one. I was okay. I could get one revolution off the floor in a couple of different ways, but that was it. I I did not have the the fear factor um to do more than more than one revolution off of the floor, things like that. So that kind of just that just kind of pushed me out. But I loved it and I loved the physicality of it. And I am still, you know, like want to be fun at, you know, gatherings with the family and they've got young kids. Hey, let's do cartwheel, just like absolutely. And then also swam, um, you know, recreational swimming, competitive, you know, for recreation summer, summertime, not not AAU or anything like that. Not didn't go on. But yeah, so I did a a a few things. I and then I went on to dance um in a semi-professional dance company um here in Sacramento for a long time.
SPEAKER_00I still am uh floored by the Sacramento Connection. And did you meet Brent here in Sacramento? I did, I did, yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_0119, I think we met like for the first time, probably like 88 or nine, something in there.
SPEAKER_00Were you involved in the St. Francis as he was at that time? Or no?
SPEAKER_01Not so much, but I did once I met Elizabeth. Um, I it was, you know, hey, you could go down to San Francisco and you could go to the studio, go to the go to the hospital, go into the into the studio. And so, yes, I would see, you know, the athletes. I think, I believe, can I say names? Um Brian Botano, I think, was there one time when I went to observe Elizabeth. And he was, I think he was doing fit, you know, physical therapy. But um, yeah, I I went down there a couple times um to do uh to do some observation with her.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's so interesting how it's how it's blossomed, you know, off of those early experiences in in really such a such an amazing way. Um so how have like would you say all of these experiences informed you? And then you went to work with Brent and applying all of that to physical therapy.
SPEAKER_01One of the things was I realized that people weren't very good. The coaches, they they did their best. And I love I had great coaches, great, you know, great direction and teachers, very compassionate, very kind, if you will, not the you know, ones who are, you know, so so so strict. But I realized that people aren't very good movement teachers in the sense of describing it, whether it's cueing or demonstrating or any of those things in ways that everybody could understand. And you kind of touched on this earlier of how do we speak to multiple people and have the each person feel like they are the only one there. Like they're really directing all this information to me. And I kept thinking, like, well, you're doing this, I'm watching you do this, but then you're saying that. And those things don't go together to me. Like, I don't understand what you mean. And then I look back and I think, gosh, maybe if they had been better communicators, maybe I could have been a better athlete, but probably not. But, you know, just does make me think. Um, you know, even early on in my Pilates, I was doing, you know, reverse abdominals, so the quadruped exercise, you know, pulling the carriage toward your hands, which is a hip flexion exercise. And one of my first Pilates teachers, not Brent or Elizabeth, um, don't use your said don't use your hip flexors. And I was so like, yes, I'm gonna learn to do that, until I thought, well, wait a second. That's like saying don't do it, you know, do a bicep curl, but don't use your bicep. Yeah. Wait a second. So one of my goals is to get people, you know, not only to question, you know, other people around them, but listen to yourself. What are you saying that might might be a great cue, good information, but it doesn't work in this setting? Or it's really just antiquated information, you know, squeeze your, you know, abdominal muscles, you know. I mean, people ask me, you know, when do I squeeze my butt? I'm like, I don't know. Reach around and squeeze it. Anytime you want. I mean, I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Engage your abdominals. I'm like, you know, you only engage people you plan to marry. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and better than engaging your stomach. Yeah. That's my that's my personal favorite. Like, I'm sure, I'm sure that your digestion and peristalsis does not, you need to have extra, yeah, extra stuff. But yeah, so that that's one thing that I I did learn. Uh, and probably what what made me want to like really take on cueing and teaching and sharing information in a way that somebody could absorb it and use it.
SPEAKER_00I think that um when you your your first word essence really sticks with me. Um when you talk about essence, right? That's that's the essence of a teacher, a movement teacher. Uh and so much of that comes out in Pilates training, right? So there's that initial need to learn the Pilates, but then there's the how do I grow into a movement teacher? Um uh and listen to yourself. Uh going back to like, well, what do we tell our clients and and how do we help our clients sort through things? I think that's also great advice for clients. Listen to yourself. Absolutely. Right. And ask yourself, what do you want to achieve? Uh and then start experiencing because it's through the experience that you learn. Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Um, it's not, it's it's actually easier said than done because you know, we still have a client who wants to come in and, you know, um feel what they think they want to feel, and we're still going to try to infuse it with, you know, maybe what they need. Absolutely. Um so if you had a new student, like what you do all the time, you have a new student walk in and say, you know, um, why should they invest in a teacher training? What what advice would you give them?
SPEAKER_01I I first would ask a question because that's I can't, I can't proceed without getting more information. And because and that's the same with our clients. Client comes in and says, you know, whatever, but you need to get more information. You can't just go off of what they first say necessarily. Yeah. What does that mean to you? Tell me more. And that's what I ask people who say, Oh, I I'd like to be a Pilates teacher. Like, okay, that's great. Tell me more about that. What led you to that? What drives you? Because if I don't know where they're coming from, I could give tons of advice. I mean, that's when people say, Oh, you know, what's your five-second elevator pitch, you know, your two-floor elevator pitch, your five floor. Like, I don't know because I don't know who I'm talking to yet. Right. So I have a real problem with that. I've got several answers, but I need to know who you are because I might say something that doesn't resonate with you at all. So I would ask them, you know, hopefully they've had more experience than they have it at my gym. I love that one. Oh, yeah, I want to teach Pilates. Oh, have you done Pilates before? No. If they have it at my gym, though, well, that's great. For the people who are actually doing it, you don't know anything about it. So that's what I, you know, do they have a movement background? Uh, do they have a teaching background? What drives them? And then we can we can start the conversation. Because if I don't know where they're coming from, I don't know where a client's coming from, my my intervention, what I say is probably not going to be as meaningful.
SPEAKER_00So that works for a new student coming in as as much as it does a new client coming in, right? And it still comes back to trying to um get to your initial question of what are they trying to achieve? Um uh do you I know nobody has a crystal ball, but if you had a crystal ball, where do you see Pilates in the larger fitness wellness sphere in the next, I don't know, five, ten years?
SPEAKER_01Well, I would I would love to see it inside of more, I want to say fitness facilities because it is, it's in, you know, name any big box gym, and they have some Pilates happening somewhere. But I would like to see it really be on par with their cross-training and their weightlifting and their, you know, whatever else is there, I would like to see that. And I I found a facility where I live now in Durham, and it it's not there yet, but I I'm almost, I don't want to take on one more project, but I'm kind of interested, what would that look like to have Pilates be part of? And they do very, very good, smart CrossFit. CrossFit gets a bad rap.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, they have Olympic weightlifting, they have cardio programs, they have all these different things. And I they all know I teach Pilates and I travel all over the world and all of that. But I would love to see it happening in a little maybe better quality and be on par with everything else instead of in some places where it's just still that one room. Uh-huh. That you can't go in because there's a reformer and nobody knows what to do with it. Right. Like that kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00So integrated more as it, you know, my uh my son once said to me, you know, CrossFit's almost like a sport and Pilates is the thing you do to do your CrossFit better.
SPEAKER_01I would love if that was really the case. Like it really had a good merit. And again, it does in a lot of places. So, you know, people might be listening to this and thinking, well, in my community, that's happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01That's fantastic. It's not happening everywhere, though.
SPEAKER_00Right. It's still, it's still sort of that other thing that people take on as opposed to integrated. Uh, and and I guess that goes to sort of just general fitness advice in terms of around Pilates, which is um, it's great to stand alone, but it can be integrated into everything that you do. I'm so glad you brought that in. Right.
SPEAKER_01It can be an and and it can be like we talked a lot about like the fusion of Pilates with other things. And there is definitely a strong camp that says it should not be combined. Like in an hour, you shouldn't be doing Pilates and you should be doing Pilates. And I respect that. That's fine. And I do think there is space for Pilates with some, maybe some weight training. I mean, we as, you know, adults need it. We need to be stressing and having the load through our bones, um, through the musculature, longevity, bone health, all of that. Um, and if it's advertised as this class has this and this, then everybody's on the same page. Right. And it's great. What I don't like is when somebody says, oh, we're gonna do a Pilates class, and then it becomes something else. It becomes something like all of it becomes something else. So I would, I, I don't have a problem with those as long as everybody's on the same page as what they're getting. It's advertised that way, the person's trained to do it, and you can choose to do it if you like.
SPEAKER_00All right. So a client comes to you and says, I'm so lost. Do I strength train? Do I Pilates train? Uh, do I spit take a spinning class? How often do I do my cardio? Because once you start, it gets it gets overwhelming really fast. Or can I just do Pilates? Um, what's your what's your recommendation to to that client?
SPEAKER_01I'll probably give a little bit of each of those. So we should be doing some sort of cardio. A lot of the current research um is actually leaning toward shorter. And you don't have to do 30 minutes all at once. Get up, walk up and down the stairs in your house once or twice if you're at your computer. It doesn't have to be these huge, huge chunks of time. It can be smaller.
SPEAKER_00I mean you don't have to run a marathon.
SPEAKER_01You do it. You don't have to train for a marathon. You don't. That the small thing is.
SPEAKER_00You don't want to that that research is showing that the small things matter.
SPEAKER_01The small things and really small things, like a minute or two of something. Yep. Not 30 minutes necessarily. If you have 30 minutes, great. Right. So you want to the first thing is don't overwhelm yourself. And do what fits. Do what fits. Do your best not to be complacent with it, though. So it to continuing to make strides, you need to do a little bit more, you know, every once in a while. But no, it doesn't have to be challenge yourself, full, full marathon in, you know, a week. Um, and then what are they like? What are they interested in? Because as we've heard, we've heard, we've heard, with so many different things, the best the best thing is the one that you're gonna do. That's right. The best diet, the best exercise, that's right, the best whatever is the one that you're going to do. Do what you like. And then when people feel better too, especially if they've been kind of sedentary, Pilates is a great tool for that because it's supportive. You still work out, you still at the end of the day, you're a little sweaty, you've done it. But it then helps you feel better, then you can do other things. You know, I never thought about running a marathon. That's right. But now I feel like I could and I want to train for that.
SPEAKER_00You create some empowerment, you definitely you let people feel that they can achieve, um, and then um sort of watch the sparks happen after that.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Their goals will change as they feel better, whatever that, whatever that is from.
SPEAKER_00But it's so overwhelming, isn't it? It's completely overwhelming. So especially, you know, if you're someone who's coming from physical therapy, you're you're full of all the things that you've got to be careful of and which you can't do, and you certainly don't want to go back to a pain state.
SPEAKER_01No.
SPEAKER_00Um, so so those small steps are huge. But also for for clients who are who are wanting more fitness for themselves to to it the the bombardment of information is so overwhelming. It it's I'm overwhelmed. Yeah. Just get started though.
SPEAKER_01Do do something. Do something and do the thing you like. Just do a little bit more of the thing you like. And then hopefully, and this goes into like what where my focus is as a teacher, is we're giving people the tools to know how to do those things that suits their body. Again, I I can't follow you around and fix your fix your fix your posture all day long. I can't do it. Right. I need to give you the tools something to do. Here's an act, go stand against the wall like this, do this, do that. Pay attention, record yourself, get your phone out, yeah, watch yourself move, see what you can learn. I've got to empower the client, otherwise, they're never going to take responsibility or be able to take responsibility for that.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01So that's another missing part. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be your teacher forever because I can help you so much. Well, the best way you can help them is pretend you're not gonna be their teacher forever, give them the tools and empower them, and then watch what happens because that's huge.
SPEAKER_00That that is something that's also changed, I would say, over the last 20 years of practice. In the in the beginning, there was a lot of let me help you. Oh, yes. Um, you know, and and now there's a lot more empowering.
SPEAKER_01I I hope so. And exploration and spontaneity, exploration, fun and fun.
SPEAKER_00Moving is fun.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Moving is fun. I mean, I I I joke all the time. Uh I was not a dancer. I did not come into the dance door. I did it because it was hard and fun. Yeah. You know? Um, and that's that's that itself is, I think, important and empowering. It's like just let's start, let's start being a little joyful in it. Something, absolutely. If you don't like it, don't do it. Yeah. And there's plenty of things to there's plenty of things. Absolutely. There's plenty of things. Absolutely. Um, so we we we we tend to do this thing with rapid fire questions. So I'm gonna, I'm just gonna boom, throw it out at you. They they're not always end up rapid fire. Sometimes we end up lingering on a question. But um as opposed to the late 80s, early 90s. What is your definition of Pilates today? Pilates is a lifestyle. Pilates is a lifestyle.
SPEAKER_01You want more than that or no? No, okay.
SPEAKER_00It's rapid fire. I think that kind of says it all. Um, what's your favorite piece of Pilates equipment? It could be big or small, and why?
SPEAKER_01Selfishly, I love the ring because my picture's on the box.
SPEAKER_00Oh gosh, yes, it is.
SPEAKER_01But I really love the chair.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna ask you to do we have one of those around here. I think I want you to sign one for me.
SPEAKER_01Do that. I do have it is funny that people will who know that will go to some studio or go somewhere and they'll take a picture with it.
SPEAKER_00Like, look, it is, it's it's it's great. And I love to then smile.
SPEAKER_01I I love to then uh message Christine when I see hers and we Christine and I uh share that. But no, my my real favorite is the chair. I think it's undervalued. I think it's a great piece of of equipment that's small, it fits almost anywhere. It's so interesting. Um, I love the chair. And then if you flip it over, it becomes an actual chair becomes.
SPEAKER_00You know what? I I agree with you. I think the chair, the application of the chair, the up, you know, the opportunity that's there with the chair, the challenge of the chair, I think is fantastic. I'm with you on that. Um, what's one misunderstanding about either Pilates or your profession that you wish more people understood?
SPEAKER_01Pilates should not be hard to do. I can't stand when people say, I tried Pilates once. It was so hard, I never went back. That makes me want to cry. If you're doing anything and Pilates, and it is so hard that you can't do it, that's not the fault of the modality, that's the fault of the teacher. You don't have the right teacher. If it's so hard, you're never gonna come back. You need to find a different teacher. I'm available. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Joy's available. No, you're no, you know, you're not. You don't want any more projects. Oh, right, right. But we are available. Yeah, yes, 100%. Um, uh all right, I'm gonna hold on to the rapid fire questions. I want to go a little deeper into that. Um so people do say that. They say, oh, it was so hard. And and and then conversely, people be like, oh, Pilates, you know, it's it's it's it doesn't make me sweaty, it doesn't make me this, it doesn't make me that. Um, so what's your your quick two-floor elevator pitch on like why it's okay to to move and not necessarily feel like you've been beaten up?
SPEAKER_01That may not be the the focus of the of the workout. And a lot of what we do in Pilates is it's been known for, you know, oh, core strengthening, core strengthening. And yes, it does that, but it's also hugely based in mobility. And just learning how to move is not gonna make you really sweaty, but it could. And if you learn those basics, and it takes maybe one session, it doesn't take 10 years. That's right. One or two sessions, you're gonna be doing the more challenging things and the other things that you like to do with greater ease, more efficiency, fewer injuries, hopefully. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a lot of value in that. All right. Um, what's one habit that you do either daily or religiously that complements your Pilates practice?
SPEAKER_01Religiously, not always, but as much as I can. I really try to get enough sleep. It's tough. Um, can't always, and especially when I'm traveling and time zones and all of that kind of stuff. But I really I do my best to get enough sleep. Yeah. That's that's something. And again, we, you know, nothing's perfect, as we as we mentioned, but um, and then the more recent is working out, as I said, I I go to this facility and um I don't do the CrossFit stuff, but a lot of like boot camp stuff, and I'm loving it. Weights and the weights, the strength training.
SPEAKER_00I know I've I've I've gotten back into that myself, and it's like it feels like this is what my body's telling me it needs right now. Absolutely. Yeah, I think there's like, especially with travel, there's the the the three pillars, right? Eat, eat well, sleep well, move well. That's true. And then if you get a chance to meditate a little on that, that's that all the better. If you can, yeah, that's great. Um, do you have a few books or any podcasts you recommend to our listeners?
SPEAKER_01Uh books, yes. So in the kind of in the teacher training, in the education realm, I I promote as often as I can a book called Make It Stick. Make it stick. Make it stick. It's a baby light blue cover uh cover. Uh the first author is Peter Brown, Peter C. Brown, I think is his is his whole um name on the on the book. And it talks about learning not from the physiology of learning, but from the activities of learning and points out a lot of things that we we thought we were actually learning things and we really weren't. They talk about durable learning. And the phrase that I love is he talks about the illusion of knowing. And so we could ask about something, and you say, Oh yeah, I know about that. You're like, oh, tell me more. Uh-huh. And they can't. Uh-huh. And that's the and I've been caught there. I've been, I've like 100% been like, uh-oh. I can't actually, I can't tell you why that is. I can't tell you about it. I can't, I don't have the information. I thought I knew it, but I didn't. So lots of strategies. Simple. The old, you know, index cards, recipe cards, write questions on it and quiz yourself. Quiz yourself, quiz yourself. Because then you're you're it's not the remembering, it's I mean, it is, but it's that recall of that piece of information that you're gonna tell somebody.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I love that book as far as uh teacher training.
SPEAKER_00It makes me wonder about like how that's changing in humans with digital and AI and right, because we don't, we don't actually physically write as much.
SPEAKER_01No, we don't, and we're we're very good at, oh, I'll just grab my phone and look that up.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I think I think I all the thing, all the AI and all that, I think it has a great place. And I think we just need to remember when we don't have our devices and those things, can we still speak intelligently about a topic? Oh, that's great.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna look this up. Make it stick it stick Peter C. Brown.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then uh a little bit older book, and I I want to go back and reread it. And we were talking about this um in our education team, is a book called Them by Ben Sass. And he was, I don't know if he's still in political office.
SPEAKER_00I was gonna say, isn't he a political?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I don't know if he's still serving or not, but he wrote this book called Them. And I think the ta I think the byline is something about um like why we hate each other and like how to get past that. And it's it's a few, I mean, it's probably almost 10 years old. And what one of the things that struck me was talking about community and the village, and like you can't, you know, in your neighborhood or your apartment complex or wherever, you know, you're messing around or you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. It's not probably your mom that's gonna say something, it's gonna be Mrs. Jones and somebody else and all that community of raising kids and participating and getting along and politely disagreeing. And I think that is relevant now. Um, there's so again, the pendulum has swung so far in both directions that I think we need to really do some coming together. And I and I I liked that book at the time that I read it, and I'm I want to re-read it. It's great. And you know, there's a zillion podcasts. Gosh, I mean, I don't even know where to start. Um, I don't have a one particular one necessarily.
SPEAKER_00Um, that's great though. I absolutely I'm gonna look up both of those. Thank you for that. Um, okay, tell people where they can find you on Instagram at ShellyA Power. You're so much better than I am. I can give you my Instagram, but I can I can say that one.
SPEAKER_01Um and it's funny, there are there are other Shelly Powers in the movement world. Um and so, yeah, Shelly A. Power, and then anything that is Polestar, um, you know, on Instagram or you know, Polestarpilates.com. How long are you with Polestar now? 35 years. Polestar didn't exist when I became part of Polestar. So way in the beginning, it was Brent and Elizabeth.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_01And then Ken sometimes and not part of Polestar, but you know, we were all there supporting, and I really love, I've heard Kenny say this a lot in the last, you know, maybe he's been saying it for longer, but all of us supporting the brand of Pilates. Yes. Like forget your school, don't forget it, but it at the end of the day, we're here to talk about and support Pilates and do Pilates and teach it. So I love that. Um, but we were all just kind of trying to help each other out in the very early days, and then, you know, Polestar came after that.
SPEAKER_00So let me just ask you one one more question, and it's it is very specific to the Pilates industry. Um internally, what do you think? Uh I I think the community has just expanded so much, and we're we're we're actually much less them now and much more integrated. Um if there's anything that it needs right now, what do you what would you think that is? Or what would your wish be for the Pilates community?
SPEAKER_01How do I say it politely? Um more I think it's okay if we're a little controversial. Every now and then we could be a little bit. I want people to be better educated. And then, you know, how do you define that? More knowledgeable about the history. As you mentioned, there's a lot of people who don't know that Joe was a person, they don't know who the many people that studied with Joe and Clara that went on to do amazing things. Right. They don't know the evolution of the equipment. They, you know, a lot of that. So I I I I wish more people knew that. It's our job to know our heritage, even if you're not, you know, I think we've lost, you know, the the conversation of classical and and you know, contemporary. I think we don't really talk about that so much. I'm sure some do, but it but it's it's our job to to know where we come from. So that I wish was a little bit more. And there was a little better education of things like biomechanics and movement, movement acquisition, um the body, things like that. Because there's still a lot of a lot of things that are being said, cued, talked about, like we talked about, you know, tightening the abdominals and all this volitional muscle cueing. It it it just doesn't, it doesn't do what people think it does. You know, tighten your pelvic floor.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I was just gonna say the pelvic floor is is notorious for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you know, very prescriptive things that they actually very prescriptive. They don't and and it could be prescriptive, but it it's not that's not so much the problem, is that it's prescriptive. And the thing that the teacher is talking about, it's like a myth. It doesn't actually exist, you know, and it's j but it's been perpetuated because we learn from people, we say what they say.
SPEAKER_00It's very directive in a in a way. Like it has an authority and a dir and a directive that that sort of like people latch on to.
SPEAKER_01It it does, and we are in those positions of authority, and we need to make sure that what we're talking about is actually true, like with human movement, the human body, all of these things. I hear things and I just think, oh my gosh, like, you know, again, just things that are just perpetuated because people don't pay attention to what they say, you know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think it's very complex.
SPEAKER_01Well, it can be, but I hear people still, even in the medical profession, part of our, you know, genre of our, you know, Pilates Pilates community, talking about things like the lower abdominals. What does that mean? There is no one muscle that sits in your lower part of your abdomen or your pelvis. And half the time I think they're talking about the hip flexors.
SPEAKER_00Well, I was gonna say, you may have a feeling experience, but that may not even be the Yeah. So it's a felt experience, not really um just not described the right way.
SPEAKER_01That's right. Yeah. And so I would that's what I would like. I'd like a little bit more accuracy with what's really happening in the body, with movement, with, you know, just general anatomy, uh, things like that. I would love if they're if if people were just a little better trained in that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh I mean, that's and that goes back to how do you take someone through a journey and create the curiosity to learn more. And then it's a come incumbent upon us to make sure the materials they're accessing are accurate.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Um, and these are these are fantastic and very big conversations, um, but I think very, very important. And I think that stretches all the way through to the client because it can help demystify completely and welcome more people, you know, into learning about themselves.
SPEAKER_01I think that's great. I think it's great. And and I love when people say, Oh wow, no one ever taught me that before, or oh wow, I've never been able to do that before. Like that is one of the things that I have that's like, check, okay, good, we've gotten somewhere. Right. Um, and it and it suits them and it and it and it facilitates something, right? Either their curiosity or their less fear. Every time I do that, it hurts.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's give you a way to do it that doesn't hurt. That doesn't hurt. And I've got to figure out how that is. And maybe I need to call in, you know, somebody that has a different skill set than I do. But it it's incumbent upon me to want to do that. Um, to want to do that and to do that. Yeah. Uh yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's fantastic because it's those light bulbs. Um, they may come in for that Instagram moment, but it's the light bulbs they'll return for. Yeah. Definitely. Fantastic. Shelly, thank you. I've had such a great time. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I've had such a great time. I'm so happy, uh, so happy to be here. I hope we get to do it again sometime. All right.
